Ultimate Motor Oil Thread or Why we hate CJ4/SM oils

[PatrickB]

I actually switched from Mobil1 V-Twin to Red Line Motorcycle oil 20w60. Much easier to get, and they have several different weights available for their line of motorcycle oils! 10w30, 10w40, 20w50, and 20w60. My local Napa Dealer stocks almost the entire line of Red Line oils. Whatever they don't have, they can usually get in 1-2 days.

[cnavarro]

I have no experience with that product, and it's very hard to find info on lubro-moly products. I would have to defer to its API rating which varies from product to product. They do have some SJ and SL rated, but also some SM, so be careful.

[PatrickB]

Originally Posted by cnavarro

I have no experience with that product, and it's very hard to find info on lubro-moly products. I would have to defer to its API rating which varies from product to product. They do have some SJ and SL rated, but also some SM, so be careful.

Charles~ Are you referring to the RedLine?
It's recommended for JASO MB, API SJ, SG, & SH.
On the bottle, it actually states that it has extra phosphorous and zinc for anti-wear.

[cnavarro]

No, I was referring to the Lubromoly. Sorry, should have been more clear :-)

[PatrickB]

Originally Posted by cnavarro

No, I was referring to the Lubromoly. Sorry, should have been more clear :-)

Thanks Charles, you were making me nervous for just a second...
I've been a fan of your thread, and info for a while! By your past info posted, I kind of inferred that perhaps the RedLine motorcycle oil was kind of like everything Mobil1 VTwin is, and perhaps even more? It might be even a bit better base stock than the M1... I'm not begging for yet ANOTHER test from you, but perhaps a nod of approval might make me feel warm and fuzzy for the lube I'm currently running in my 3.2's crankcase!

[donstevens]

[QUOTE=cnavarro;3853794] I'd also say it's a must to have a cat bypass if you use M1 V-Twin (or it's 10w40 mx4t/4t racing variant), like with the other motorcycle oils, as they will clog the catalytic converter, which if it does occur, can fry your engine in no time flat because of elevated EGTs.
[QUOTE]


I have heard mixed opinions on this topic. I understand there is risk of Cat damage with High ZDDP oils. On the other hand, I have also read that in a mechancally sound engine where minimal oil gets in to the exhaust as a result of piston ring or valve guide blow by, that SJ levels of Zn and Ph are nothing to be concerned about.

I guess my question is, has anyone ever really heard about a cat getting clogged by oil blow by?

Don

[PatrickB]

[QUOTE=donstevens;3855071][QUOTE=cnavarro;3853794] I'd also say it's a must to have a cat bypass if you use M1 V-Twin (or it's 10w40 mx4t/4t racing variant), like with the other motorcycle oils, as they will clog the catalytic converter, which if it does occur, can fry your engine in no time flat because of elevated EGTs.

I have heard mixed opinions on this topic. I understand there is risk of Cat damage with High ZDDP oils. On the other hand, I have also read that in a mechancally sound engine where minimal oil gets in to the exhaust as a result of piston ring or valve guide blow by, that SJ levels of Zn and Ph are nothing to be concerned about.

I guess my question is, has anyone ever really heard about a cat getting clogged by oil blow by?

Don

Not to worry on mine, as the Cat is removed, and I'm running header's & a Dynomax muffler...

I may be speaking out of turn here, but my limited understanding of this topic is that the additive changes were mandated in part due to the changes made in NEWER Cat's that were wearing out quicker with the old SJ/SL formula's of Zn & P. The formula changes were made in an attempt to make the newer Cat's last longer, at the expense of destroying older engines already in service?

[CORNICE6]

The PO of my SC had used strictly Castrol GTX 20W50. Being semi-synthetic, would it be a good idea to switch to Brad Penn from here on? I'm concern that it might cause some oil leak. Any thoughts? Thx.

[ZLP]

FYI I have been getting my M1 Vtwin from Walmart @ $8.54/qt

[cnavarro]

I had a customer have their cat clog from using M1 V-Twin - took well over a year, after a recently fresh rebuild. The V-Twin/MX4T Mobil formulations are damn near identical to their old Mobil 1R Nascar oil, and has significantly more Zn and P than Swepco or Brad Penn, hence my concern. I'd rather be on the safe side and say remove the cat than have someone fry their engine :-)

[SRT356/911]

This is interesting. I changed the oil in my 01 GMC 5.3. Put in BP 10-30. After about 1K miles the the catalytic converter went out.

Since I had used the old formula M1 with higher ZP it's entire life , was it just something that was coming anyway?

The manual calls for starburst oil.

[cnavarro]

Yup, it was something coming for a long time, just as you figured. I remember my first car was an '05 ford contour, and it ate four catalytic converters in the first 60k miles, running M1, which back then, had TONS of Zn and P. The Brad Penn is an API SJ rated oil, and probably, that's what your '01 called for, considering even Porsche called for an SH/SJ up until 2004 :-)

[movin]

Won't high Z & P oils also shorten O2 sensor life?

[Steve@Rennsport]

Originally Posted by movin

Won't high Z & P oils also shorten O2 sensor life?

Not that I've witnessed, but I'd rather replace those instead of cams, rockers, intermediate gears, etc.

[DRACO A5OG]

Damn I knew it was too good to be true.

3 months on BP, Quiter Valves when Full, No additional Leaks and Existing Leaks are Lessened and SHe is Running Strong. No side effects so far, but now I need to worry about the Cat?

Thankfully I am looking to install Cat ByPass or Pre-Muffler.

[cnavarro]

On top of the o2 sensors, spark plugs also can get fouled up with too much Zn and P. But don't worry about the cat with the BP nor with the Swepco, these cars were running oils with these levels of Zn and P when new. I'm more concered with the oils approaching and exceededing 2000 ppm Zn and P...

[hcoles]

O2 sensors = cheap..... Cams/Rockers not so much

[movin]

I meant to say the O2 sensor should be checked more frequently when using the higher Z & P oils. No doubt its life is shortened.

[donstevens]

Originally Posted by cnavarro

I remember my first car was an '05 ford contour, and it ate four catalytic converters in the first 60k miles, running M1, which back then, had TONS of Zn and P.

Wow - What weight was the oil? M1 - 0W20? Did the car use a lot of oil? I had a Crown Vic at the time that pretty much drank the 20 weight oil. It did fine with 5w30 synthetic and even better with 10W30 synthetic.

About that time Ford went to recommending 5W20 (most of which were group III group II blends) for fuel economy reasons. And if you were using Mobil-1, it may have been the 0W20 which was even thinner.

Here is some of the documentaion that I referenced about the risk of Cat failure:

Form Amsoil website.

"The prevalent sources of phosphorous in motor oils are additives called zinc dithiophosphates (ZDTPs). Currently, these versatile additives act as oxidation/corrosion inhibitors and aid in the ability of a lubricant to reduce wear. The automobile manufacturers, however, have demanded that lubricants contain a maximum of only .10% phosphorous. Their reason is that some manufacturers believe that higher phosphorous content levels will poison the catalytic converters on their cars before they reach 150,000 miles, which is the number of miles that their vehicles will be required to pass EPA emission standards. There has not been total agreement within the automotive and lubrication industry about whether phosphorous levels over .10% actually do harm catalytic converters in the long run. What they have failed to make allowances for is the NOACK volatility of an oil.
The maximum allowable NOACK volatility percentage for the new SL/GF-3 passenger car motor oil specification is 15%. Most of AMSOIL motor oils are in the 5% to 8% NOACK volatility range. Studies have shown there is a correlation between NOACK volatility, oil consumption and the amount of phosphorous from motor oil that will end up in the exhaust gasses. Therefore, oils with higher levels of phosphorous but with low volatility, such as AMSOIL motor oils, present no more risk to catalytic converters than low phosphorous oils with higher NOACK volatility. This has also been demonstrated for years in actual application through state mandated exhaust gas testing on our Dealers' and customers' high mileage vehicles using AMSOIL synthetic motor oils."

Of course, it is Amsoil's job to sell their formula synthetic oils. As such, if one looks upon this with a cautoiusly skeptic eye, it could be construed that the above response is what they want the consumer to believe and may not be entirely objective.

The following is an excerpt from a technical paper wriiten by Blaine Ballentine of Central Petroleum Company and published at www.noria.com which is a site offered by a publisher dedicated to oil analysis and machinery lubrication. I think that Blaine's words may be a little less commercial and a little more objective.

"Antiwear Property Changes
Another change that occurred in passenger car motor oils with GF-2 and GF-3 is a more stringent limit on phosphorus, which is part of the zinc phosphate (ZDDP) antiwear additive. The auto manufacturers are concerned that phosphorus will deposit on surfaces of the catalytic converter and shorten its life.

This is a complicated issue, and the deposits depend on the specific ZDDP chemistry and the finished oil formulation. The industry was unsuccessful in designing an engine test for an oil’s catalytic converter deposit forming tendencies. Therefore, the auto manufacturers set an arbitrary limit for motor oil of 0.1 percent phosphorus.

Antiwear additives are important in the absence of a hydrodynamic film, such as in the valve train. The antiwear additives are activated by frictional heat, which causes them to react with the hot surface and form a chemical barrier to wear.

The mechanism by which phosphorus deposits form on catalytic converter surfaces is not fully understood. It does not correlate directly with oil volatility or oil consumption. On the other hand, if engine wear causes oil consumption to increase, the risk of forming phosphorus deposits in the converter would increase dramatically. It seems that preventing wear and oil consumption should be a priority.

In the past, oil formulators could make a premium product by simply adding more ZDDP. A similar move today would result in an oil formulation that would not support new car warranties. "

What does all of this mean? I guess I have a couple of points that parallel Charles' comments. 1) More ZDDP is not always better. 2) How one's oil performs is truly dependent upon the overall chemistry of the oil and not just based on certain additive concentrations. And 3) every application is different. Used oil analysis remains the best way to determine how a particular oil is working in your car. So be careful with your selections. If your car uses a fair amount of oil and still has a CAT, stick with an oil with conservative level of ZDDP. Finally try a few different oils and monitor the results with used oil analysis to determine which oil works best for your application.

Don

[cnavarro]

Don, all valid and rational points. Amen!

I totally buy Amsoil's explaination of why noack volatility is just as important as the Zn and P levels. The higher the consumption, the more gets in the cat. Oils with higher HTHS viscosities have better noack volatility numbers - it's proportional.

I purchased some SAE papers on catalytic converters and the effect of lubricants on them, but I haven't had the time to read them in what now has been months. I'll report back as always when I do get time to read them... I think I need a vacation!

BTW, I used 10w30 M1 in the V6 Contour. I neglected to say the car (and engine) was a POS. The engine developed a rod knock at 60,000 mi, and that was with 3k oil changes and TONS of preventative maintainence. No matter how much you polish a turd it's still a turd!