Ultimate Motor Oil Thread or Why we hate CJ4/SM oils

[kang]

Have you seen this thread?

http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/showthread.php?t=407224

On page 5, someone mentioned “failures on brand new factory race engines with the recommended Mobil 1 fill.” My question is how can you blame this on the oil? If the oil really caused a brand new motor to fail, wouldn’t every other motor with the same oil fail too? There are bunches and bunches of motors running tens of thousands of miles just fine with the factory recommended M1. Isn’t it possible that something else caused this brand new factory race engine to fail?

[fast_e_man]

I made up my mind to go with Brad Penn 20W50 racing about 25 pages ago. I still had this strange compulsion to read the read to its end.

For those in the Denver area, Hill Petrollium in Arvada carries Brad Penn motor oil. I talked with Norm Fisher (sales manager), 303-424-6262. He noted the strong advocacy for BP oil in the Porsche community, Pelicanites in particular. He quoted me $41.00 per case. I will be stopping by later this week to pick up a couple of cases (on the way to pick up my targa top from Dave Brown in Boulder).

[JFairman]

If that's 12 quarts to a case, thats an incredibly good price.

I just wonder if the Brad Penn will turn to carbon coke in the heat of a 930 turbo bearing-housing.
Thats why I stay with synthetic oil with plenty of zddp.

[w21055]

I use Brad Penn and I could not be happier.

[dan79brooklyn]

Where are people ordering Mobil 1 MXT 10-40 and V-twin Motorcycle oil from?
I ordered a case of the MXT but it was over $100 is there any place cheaper?
I'm thinking I should switch to BP for the summer months, but not sure what to use for the winter when I want protection down to 0 degree F.
That's why I was planning on running the MXT all year round.
Works out to the same price (1 change per year vs. 2 times per year).
Any reccomendations?

[PatrickB]

Originally Posted by dan79brooklyn

Where are people ordering Mobil 1 MXT 10-40 and V-twin Motorcycle oil from?
I ordered a case of the MXT but it was over $100 is there any place cheaper?
I'm thinking I should switch to BP for the summer months, but not sure what to use for the winter when I want protection down to 0 degree F.
That's why I was planning on running the MXT all year round.
Works out to the same price (1 change per year vs. 2 times per year).
Any reccomendations?

I've purchased the Mobil1 Vtwin 20w50 from Amazon.com, you might search there...

You might consider Redline Oil. I just made the switch! They make their version of Motorcycle VTwin in 10W30, 10w40, 20w50, AND 20W60. I've spoken to a Rep., and they do have and will maintain the higher levels of Zn & P in their motorcycle oils. They will be lowering it though in their regular automotive line. For info, check out www.redlineoil.com .
The nice thing for me is that my local Napa Store stocks the entire line of Redline Oil Products.

[chrisp]

Charles,

I'm trying to make head or tails of this whole thread. Thanks for all of the hard work.

I use synthetic because I've been told they are more stable at higher temps. Is this sound reasoning? Do the dino oils you like perform as well as the synthetics in this regard?

I haven't been overly concerned about the new lower ZDDP levels because I run my track-only car under 2,000 miles a year. Should I reconsider?

I run a multi-viscosity with the heavy end being 40 weight. I've read that you should run the thinnest oil that gives you sufficient oil pressure because there's less parasitic loss due to the thicker oil. I believe it also moves heat faster/easier. This is why I choose 40 over 50. What are you're thoughts on this?

Thanks.

[Luis de Prat]

Read through this whole thread and haven't seen any mention of High-Temperature/High-Shear (HTHS) numbers for Brad Penn or the rest of the brands discussed.

From the Porsche Club Great Britain forum:

High-Temperature/High-Shear
by Simon

This test is a simulation of the shearing effects that would occur within an engine. In fact, it's actually designed to simulate motor oil viscosity in operating crankshaft bearings.

Under high stress conditions where shearing can occur, the VI Improvers (polymers) break down. As they do, the viscosity of the oil decreases. This is what the High Temperature/High Shear test checks for.

The HT/HS test is measured in Centipoise (cP) as the Cold Crank Simulator test is. However, in this case, because you're hoping for the least loss of viscosity with an increase in heat and stress, you want the cP value to remain high.

Each SAE multi-viscosity grade has a specific lower limit for the HT/HS cP value. If a multi-viscosity oil cannot achieve a cP value above that limit, it cannot be classified under that viscosity grade. For instance, according to the SAE specifications, an oil must achieve an HT/HS cP value of 3.7 or higher in order to be classified at the 15w40 viscosity grade.
The thinner the oil the lower the number.

Comparisons of HTHS numbers.

Here for comparison sake are a few numbers that we have compiled from data sheets and requests to the oil companies concerned. These are well known oils and considered to be "quality" synthetics so these comparisons are relevant.

Silkolene PRO S 5w-40
HTHS 4.07

Motul 300V 5w-40
HTHS 4.51

Silkolene PRO S 10w-50
HTHS 5.11

Motul 300V 10w-40
HTHS 4.19

Silkolene PRO R 15w-50
HTHS 5.23

Motul 300V 15w-50
HTHS 5.33

Mobil 1 Motorsport 15w-50
HTHS 5.11

Castrol RS 10w-60
HTHS 3.70

[HarryD]

From a similar thread at Rennlist (http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/showthread.php?t=407224):

Originally Posted by RallyJon

Cliff's Notes? I'll give it a try...

It started off months ago with some anecdotal data that modern fuel efficient and emissions friendly oil formulations were missing some key ingredients that are important to our engines. Easy solution: use a high grade non-SM oil that has at least 1100 ppm of P and Zn and don't worry about it. Or use a bit of additives to pump up the 20 gal of SM oil you just bought until it's gone. All very sensible stuff.

Then things began to get weird.

Diesel synthetic oils begat motorcycle synthetic oils begat the first discussion of non-synthetic oil ever seen for a post '89 911. Simultaneously, oil weights were up, too. The old 0W40 became 5W40 became 15W40 became 20W50. For track use and sustained Autobahn speeds, right? No, for going to the supermarket for groceries, too.

And it turns out that the heavy sludge makes more power, even! (Who woulda thunk?) Not just that, but even in cold climates, we need to use heavy weight oil now, because--get this--the gaps between the cold bearings are now too vast for normal oil weights. Why, some oil is so thin it can drain right out between the aluminum atoms in your case, then you'll have no oil at all.

This whole topic has jumped the shark, and what started as some very constructive ideas for fixing a very real problem has evolved into a crazy bandwagon of 993 owners scratching their heads at where they'll find pure unrefined organic extra-virgin straight 60-weight (a preview of next week's recommendations) which is the only proper oil to keep your engine alive.

To which I responded:

Originally Posted by HarryD

Jon,

Ha-ha. Very good. Go Fonzie!



Very good summary. For most of us with simple minds, ... find an oil that is NOT labelled CJ/SM, choose a weight that makes sense to you (factory owners manual seems to have some reasonable suggestions, and use in good health!

FWIW, Some Brad Penn and SWEPCO products meet this criteria as does some ELF and Redline products. I am sure there are others.

Folks, lets keep this simple. Avoid CJ/SM oils and you will be ok.

[Luis de Prat]

Originally Posted by HarryD

Folks, lets keep this simple. Avoid CJ/SM oils and you will be ok.

No offense, but 30+ pages is hardly "keeping it simple."

Just because you feel all your questions pertaining to this subject are answered doesn't mean everyone else's are.

[cnavarro]

Originally Posted by chrisp

Charles,

I'm trying to make head or tails of this whole thread. Thanks for all of the hard work.

I use synthetic because I've been told they are more stable at higher temps. Is this sound reasoning? Do the dino oils you like perform as well as the synthetics in this regard?

From what I personally have seen and what other shops and racers have told me, the Brad Penn and Swepco has been holding up the same, if not better, than the previous Mobil synthetics many were running with Porsche's blessings.

I haven't been overly concerned about the new lower ZDDP levels because I run my track-only car under 2,000 miles a year. Should I reconsider?

Just because you don't drive the car that much or that often on a particular fill of oil doesn't mean you don't need to worry about the anti-wear additives. If anything, a track-only car seeing that kind of mileage should be running the best oil you can find.

I run a multi-viscosity with the heavy end being 40 weight. I've read that you should run the thinnest oil that gives you sufficient oil pressure because there's less parasitic loss due to the thicker oil. I believe it also moves heat faster/easier. This is why I choose 40 over 50. What are you're thoughts on this?

Partially true. You want to make sure you have a minimum amount of oil pressure hot, i.e. 10 psi per 1000 rpm, but that doesn't mean you should run a lighter oil just because you have more pressure. Lighter oils will have lower film strengths, thus forcing the oil to rely on the anti-wear additives more in areas where hydrodynamic lubrication is taking place.

In the dyno testing we've done, there really is no justification for running a lighter oil for more HP. We have not seen large, if not any, parasitic losses from internal friction because of higher viscosity oils in areas where hydrodynamic lubrication (bearings) would be susceptible to this kind of HP losses. This was even going to an extreme of testing Xw20 oils versus 20w50 oils. I wouldn't necessarily say there really isn't any gains over a 15w40 friction modified oil versus similarly formulated 20w50. Same goes for synthetic versus non-synthetic; we just did not see any HUGE differences.

Now if the engine had tighter clearances than the typical aircooled engine, that might be a different story.

[cnavarro]

Originally Posted by Luis de Prat

Castrol RS 10w-60
HTHS 3.70

I've seen that number quoted. It's wrong; the data sheet says MIN 3.70, but it's actually in the low 6.0s. It's a shame this oil has been reformulated, it was a decent oil where the need for a 60 wt when hot was required while still allowing for cold start protection down to 0F or lower!

[chrisp]

I'm having trouble finding info on Quaker State Q synthetic Euro formulation. I would imagine it's designed to meet the VW standard but I wonder what the ZDDP is like on that product.

Maybe I'm missing something obvious but when you first started this thread your web page had a listing of the levels of a long list of oils you tested. I can't find that list anywhere. Did you take it down?

[cnavarro]

Yes, I took the list down for a few reasons. I kept getting emails that it was out of date OR people were saying there's nothing wrong with an oil, ignoring the fact that the listed results was for the previous formulation (no longer existing), among other reasons.

[chrisp]

Did you ever test Quaker State's Q Euro blend?

[HarryD]

Originally Posted by Luis de Prat

No offense, but 30+ pages is hardly "keeping it simple."

Just because you feel all your questions pertaining to this subject are answered doesn't mean everyone else's are.

Luis:

Yes, I know 30+ pages is very long but ths is a topic close to religion for many. I would hope your questions are answered as well. If not, please do ask. After all, a question not asked is rarely answered.

Regards.

[jpahemi]

Does anyone know if the oils targeted for high mileage engines (75k+) contain the Zn & P levels needed for better protection??

jp

[cnavarro]

Originally Posted by jpahemi

Does anyone know if the oils targeted for high mileage engines (75k+) contain the Zn & P levels needed for better protection??

jp

Some do, some don't. No rhyme or reason to it. Usually have seal conditioners and other stuff too. The Mobil 1 high-mileage 10w40 is an API SL rated oil with a bit more Zn and P, but still isn't one of my first choices. I would rather almost use the Mobil 1 Truck and Diesel 5w40 over it IMHO, which still isn't my first choice.

[jpahemi]

Charles:
Since the list was taken down for the above mentioned reasons, can you recommend an oil for a higher mileage engine (911-3.2)? 'Possibly a dino & syn type oil?? Which high mileage oil presently available??

jp

[rickdm]

Charles in looking for a good 10W-30 oil for my '91 Miata, that is mostly street driven with some AX use, I started using the Brad Penn 10W-30. Any reason to think that this l would not be of the same quality as the 20W-50? I know this engine does not put the same loads on the cams as my 911, but I have to believe the BP additives and base stock couldn't hurt.