Ultimate Motor Oil Thread or Why we hate CJ4/SM oils

[p911sc]

Charles/Don/Bill,
As with the rest of the post, you replies were very informative.
Thanks.
Rick

[GaryR]

How about this stuff, any info on it?

http://www.zddplus.com/

[911pcars]

FWIW, you get twice the equivalent product at the same price using Crane Cam's Super Lube Break-In Concentrate.

Sherwood

[GaryR]

Originally Posted by 911pcars

FWIW, you get twice the equivalent product at the same price using Crane Cam's Super Lube Break-In Concentrate.

Sherwood

Are these compatible with the Mobil 1 15W50 I am using in my track car? I have quite a bit of that in stock.. My engine is brand new and i'd sure like to keep it that way..

[cnavarro]

Those products to boost Zn and P in super concentrate are great for break-in of new engines, but in large quantities for street use, will make the oil over acidic in short order, requiring much shorter drain intervals. That little tidbit is always neglected, as typically when you add Zn and P you have to add equivalent levels of detergent to maintain the same drain interval. These products aren't formulated that way. This wasn't as much a problem with STP or EOS, because they are much lower in concentration. At most, you could net a 200ppm increase in Zn and P with EOS in a 911 with one pint whereas the makers of these other additives are recommending boosting to 2000+ ppm levels, which is unadviseable, unless you're dumping the oil after every track weekend as typically done with real race oils.

[GaryR]

Originally Posted by cnavarro

Those products to boost Zn and P in super concentrate are great for break-in of new engines, but in large quantities for street use, will make the oil over acidic in short order, requiring much shorter drain intervals. That little tidbit is always neglected, as typically when you add Zn and P you have to add equivalent levels of detergent to maintain the same drain interval. These products aren't formulated that way. This wasn't as much a problem with STP or EOS, because they are much lower in concentration. At most, you could net a 200ppm increase in Zn and P with EOS in a 911 with one pint whereas the makers of these other additives are recommending boosting to 2000+ ppm levels, which is unadviseable, unless you're dumping the oil after every track weekend as typically done with real race oils.

Thank you Charles. Would it be appropriate to 1/2 dose these additives into M1 synthetic (I really have a lot of it) for normal (track/race) use or to just leave well enough alone? My car has done the "break in" period with an additive my shop uses (I will find out what it was) and has fresh M1 in it now. I believe I have a total of 13 QTs in my system including large front cooler.

[porsche930dude]

Thank you for contacting Castrol North America,

The latest API SM/ILSAC GF-4 category calls for reduced Zinc and Phosphorus levels to allow extended catalyst life in current model vehicles. There appear to be field issues associated with the SM/GF-4 oil's level of antiwear in the classic car engines known as flat tappet cam engines. The current late model passenger car engines are not flat tappet cam engines and have no reported field issues related to the level of antiwear chemistry in the SM/GF-4 oils.





Product Recommendations for Flat Tappet (Solid Lifter) Cam Engines:

Castrol Syntec 5W-40 (min Zn = 0.10 wt % = 1000 ppm)(full synthetic)

Castrol Syntec 20W-50 (Recent reformulation identified by "Recommended for Classic Cars" text on back label) (min Zn = 0.12 = 1200 ppm)(full synthetic) PREFERRED

Castrol TWS Motorsport 10W-60 (BMW dealerships) (min Zn = 0.10 = 1000 ppm)(full synthetic)

BMW Long Life 5W-30 (BMW dealerships)(min Zn = 0.095 = 950 ppm)(full synthetic)



New Motorcycle Products, Expected to be Available Q2 2008:

Castrol 4T 10W-40 and 20W-50 (min Zn = 0.10 wt % = 1000 ppm)

Castrol Actevo X-Tra 10W-30, 10W-40, 20W-40 and 20W-50 (min Zn = 0.10 = 1000 ppm)

Castrol Actevo X-Tra Offroad 10W-40 and 20W-50 (min Zn = 0.10 = 1000 ppm)

Castrol Power RS GPS 10W-30, 10W-40 and 20W-50 (min Zn = 0.12 = 1200 ppm) PREFERED

Castrol Power RS R4 10W-50 and 5W-40 (min Zn = 0.12 = 1200 ppm) PREFERED

Castrol Power RS V-Twin 20W-40 and 20W-50 (min Zn = 0.12 = 1200 ppm) PREFERED



Existing Motorcycle Products, Will Be Transitioning Out:

Castrol Grand Prix 4-Stroke Motorcycle Oil 10W-40, 20W-50 (min Zn = 0.10 wt % = 1000 ppm)

Castrol GO! 10W-40, 20W-50 Motorcycle Oil (min Zn = 0.10 = 1000 ppm)



Thank you again for contacting Castrol, the Technology Leader!

Castrol Consumer Relations

1-800-462-0835 Thank you for contacting Castrol North America,

[wm711]

Charles, PM sent-Thanks, Bill Woods

[walt]

I have a few containters of Competition Cams oil additive in the garage. Does anyone know the Zn and P levels of this product? I contacted the manufacturer but was told it was proprietary.

[randytrish]

Hello all,
I've been reading through this post for the last couple of months and finally decided to start looking around locally for an alternative to Castrol 20w50 that I've been using. What I realized from this is basically with an older air cooled engine is to stay away from the SM labeled oils. I had found another site a while back that recommended looking at motorcycle oils. I have found what I think may be a good choice. At my local O'Reillys and found Valvoline 20w50 motorcycle oil. It is SF/SG/SJ rated and $3.68 a quart. I read some of the post about Valvolines VR-1 20w50, at my store it has a SM rating.
Thanks,
Randy

[db_cooper]

There may be no reason to be concerned. See the link,

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1056852#Post1056852


Test of Shell Rotella T CJ-4 15w40, shows 1355 of P and 1504 of ZN. A very health dose of Zinc.

Test was done by ANA labs rather than Blackstone. Blackstone's results have been questionable lately.

Perhaps someone has other VOA's to compare.

[cnavarro]

That can't be correct, it exceeds the limits imposed by the API CJ-4 standard. It's more in the 1200ppm Zn and 1000 ppm P (max), from my own VOA done by Staveley.

[db_cooper]

Might be hasty to make lubrication purchases considering the wide range of test results and making decisions on the loose data.

I would be interesting to send the same Shell sample to several different labs and compare the results?

According to Shell the new Rotella T 15w40: Shell Rotella T Multigrade Oil SAE 15W-40 with Triple Protection
Technology, our API CJ-4/SM specification product, typically contains about 1200 ppm zinc and 1100 ppm phosphorous as manufactured.

Perhaps Shell made an error on the high side?

Wouldn't anything north of 1000 ppm of Z meet Porsche standards?

[cnavarro]

Originally Posted by db_cooper

Wouldn't anything north of 1000 ppm of Z meet Porsche standards?

With the newer 996 based engines, probably yes. With the older aircooled engines, I personally think they need more.

Depending on the detergents used, 1200ppm Zn/P with a low Ca blended (Brad Penn, Motul 300V, the old Mobil 1 SH 15w50 from the 90s, early 00's) with Mg/Na or 1450ppm Zn/P with a solely Ca based detergent (Swepco, or other CI-4 rated oils fall in this category). If the oil has any boron in it, it's just an added bonus, but I wouldn't count on the boron anti-wear additives alone to protect the older engines with oils having lower Zn and P levels.

[kach22i]

[QUOTE=billybek;3891185]

Originally Posted by kach22i

Selection of the right Motor Oil for the Corvair and other Engines
http://www.widman.biz/uploads/Corvair_oil.pdf

Very interesting paper, thanks for posting the link!

Recommendations 11 & 12 on pages 17 & 18 are of special interest to me as I've been looking into engine flushes lately.

[donstevens]

[QUOTE=kach22i;3903257]

Originally Posted by billybek

Recommendations 11 & 12 on pages 17 & 18 are of special interest to me as I've been looking into engine flushes lately.

I just took the time to read this article which is very well done. Based on your comment about "engine flushes" I expected the article to recommend them and I in turn was prepared to blast that notion. I was very plesed to see the author's recommendation to stay away for such products. He offers lots of other good advice as well.

Everyone should take the time to read this article.

Don

PS - Where in Michigan? I am travelling to the Alpena are in June.

[911pcars]

I saw an announcement somewhere yesterday about a newly introduced Kendall GT-1 with the desired levels of Zn and Phosphorous becoming a reality. As you might be aware from reading 1000 pages of this thread, Conoco Petroleum purchased the name Kendall and relabeled Conoco oil with the "Kendall GT-1" moniker. It wasn't the same green stuff as before the buyout.

Then Brad Penn (assuming the same refinery location) began selling the green stuff under their own label.

Thus, there's another oil to test and confirm they aren't lying (referring to the new and improved Kendall GT-1).

Sherwood

[cnavarro]

Kendall GT has had 1200ppm Zn/P all this time, as far as I am aware. They however use Ca detergents in high levels, which is suprising, considering they use an Na/Mg/Ca blend in their other oils that have 600-800ppm Zn/P.

[alniki]

Originally Posted by kach22i

Selection of the right Motor Oil for the Corvair and other Engines
http://www.widman.biz/uploads/Corvair_oil.pdf

Definitely worth a read.

But according to this article, we probably don't need oil with a SAE viscosity higher than xW30 if our 911 engine was designed as the Corvair engine to run on oil that is between 9.3 cSt and 12.5 cSt in the bearings at operating temperature of 100° C. And even one step up between 12.5 cSt – 16.3 cSt we would only need a SAE xW40 oil. So what is the place of a 15W50 or 20W50 oil for our 911 engines? Unless we usually run them at a much higher temperatrue?

[cnavarro]

You should never use anything lower than an xW40, and above 90F ambient, always an xW50.

Back in the say of API SH/SJ, even 10w30s had good levels of Zn and P. That is no longer the case. It's very hard to find good lighter viscosity oils - Brad Penn makes a 10w30 (API SJ), Motul 300V (API SH), etc... Even energy conserving oils then had more Zn and P. That is not the case now.

Regardless, a 10W30 should only be used up to 70F abient and a 5w30 only up to ~30F abient! Not to mention, shy of a few racing oils, most xW30s are GF-4 energy conserving oils, which are as bad as they come for our engines. Just look at the factory table for oil viscosities: