Ultimate Motor Oil Thread or Why we hate CJ4/SM oils

[2002M3Drew]

Originally Posted by nize

charts and specs released by the very companies that are trying to promote their own products are completely useless, just fyi.

As are internet threads being watched by lemmings. The experts...they are the ones selling the cure (BP) to the problem (Mobil), right?

I strongly doubt that one of the largest petroleum corporations on the planet is publishing false numbers on their products with the purpose of assuaging a small group of flat tappet engine owners. The liability far exceeds any potential sales benefit. Just think about the small pimple this market subsection represents to Exxon Mobil.

[sig_a]

Uh-Ou. I hear the spin machine starting up where one shill asks a softball question and the Brad Penn expert hits it out of the park.....it's a joke.

Exxon (XOM) is the largest corporation in the world. It is also the most profitable. It is also considered the best managed company on earth. Think of who that list includes: IBM, PG, JNJ, WMT...

[nize]

Originally Posted by 2002M3Drew

As are internet threads being watched by lemmings. The experts...they are the ones selling the cure (BP) to the problem (Mobil), right?

I strongly doubt that one of the largest petroleum corporations on the planet is publishing false numbers on their products with the purpose of assuaging a small group of flat tappet engine owners. The liability far exceeds any potential sales benefit. Just think about the small pimple this market subsection represents to Exxon Mobil.

actually, i trusted neither. some locals who are fanatic about their oil actually paid to have various oils independently lab tested.

the results verified most of what was already discussed in this very lengthy thread, and the participants now use brad penn oil in their cars.

[cnavarro]

Brad Penn ... or Swepco, or Motul, or Mobil 1 motorcycle, or ....

[cnavarro]

There are nay sayers on every forum, I've learned to live with it and not loose any sleep over it.

[941MXVET]

Originally Posted by sig_a

Exxon (XOM) is the largest corporation in the world. It is also the most profitable. It is also considered the best managed company on earth. Think of who that list includes: IBM, PG, JNJ, WMT...

Exactly why I don't use M1 in my cars. I'd rather use a smaller niche company run by enthusiast rather then a board of directors more concerned with EPS then producing a quality product.

I use Redline in my 964's engine and Swepco in it's tranny.

[ViR2]

Hi,
I have just one quick question for pro's. Would this oil be ok for my car?
Q8 Formula F1 SAE 10w50
D 1298, 15°C, kg/m³ 851
D 445, 40°C, mm²/s 133,6
D 445, 100°C, mm²/s 18,7

ACEA A3
API SJ/CD
BMW Special oil
MB 229.1
Peugeot TU-3M test
Porsche GL
VW-Norm 501.01

Basicly none of the listed oils are available here in Europe so I have to use this instead.

[cnavarro]

Sure, sounds good.

[brads911sc]

If the testing facility sells the oil... it is not independant... and is no different than the big Oil companies manufacturing it... no affiliation, but there are several truly independant testing facilities like Bob the Oil Guy, and they are not pushing Brad Penn after testing it nor are they posting on this thread.. in the end, its a personal choice... there are 10+ oils in 20w50 weight that have plenty of ZDDP and Phosporus. VR1, Swepco, Redline, Mobil 1, Kendall GT1, various motorcycle oils, etc to name a few. If you like BP, use it. If you like one of the other acceptable ones, use it...

If a user such as Drew says it foams why would we all blindly agree with a couple posters who say in their "testing" it doesnt foam? Where are the truly independant professional opinions.

[uwanna]

Originally Posted by brads911sc

If the testing facility sells the oil... it is not independant... and is no different than the big Oil companies manufacturing it... no affiliation, but there are several truly independant testing facilities like Bob the Oil Guy, and they are not pushing Brad Penn after testing it. in the end, its a personal choice... there are 10+ oils in 20w50 weight that have plenty of ZDDP and Phosporus. VR1, Swepco, Redline, Mobil 1, Kendall GT1, various motorcycle oils, etc to name a few. If you like BP, use it. If you like one of the other acceptable ones, use it... its really not rocket science... in the end, i wouldnt trust any testing facility who sells oil. Flame Away!

WOW, Brad Penn sure seems to be a burr under your saddle!! Me thinks you doth protest too much! As the old adage says "You spends your money, and makes your choices". But why be so negative on the folks who choose Brad Penn. I'm sure they have done their research, as I have, and have made their choice. In fact several of the folks on this thread have used "independent testing facilities" as you suggest, and have chosen Brad Penn! Besides, I can buy Brad Penn locally at cheaper prices than most of the other oils you cite!

[brads911sc]

The burr under my saddle isnt brad penn or those who use it. I could care less... its those experts that sell their opinion as being independant and unbiased... based on their "independant" testing... when in fact they sell it... when someone has a conflict of interest, they really are obligated to recuse themselves. I am no expert. brad penn is probably a great oil... but a salesman of BP telling us how much better his product is over GT1, VR1, or Mobil 1 is no different than Mobil telling us how great Mobil is. Thats not really in the "little guys" and "non-experts" best interest.

This post was in response to two things, 1. people slamming Mobil for presenting Mobil as the best oil and 2. implying Drew is clueless over his foaming results. there are numerous put downs of Mobil and other oils, when those putting them down have a conflict of interest.

2003M3Drew says it foams... he uses Mobil which doesnt foam... the experts chime in and basically say "in their testing" BP doesnt foam. and basically imply that drew is stupid for saying it foams. yet those disbelieving Drew... sell the oil... would you accept that if Mobil or Valvoline salesmen were disputing the results?

I am glad you love BP. I dont have it locally, so I dont use it... but please... alittle objectivity isnt too much to ask for... Ill stop ranting now.

[cnavarro]

As it has been pointed out many times, there are quite a few choices out there. Brad Penn is but one. And it's well known that you can call up Brad Penn (or Swepco) and they will gladly point you in the direction of a local dealer.

For those of you who have followed this whole debacle, we've been dealing with wear related issues since way before the inception of this thread and even further back to when the API SL rating came out. Many of us in the field were unaware that the problem was oil. We went as far as to have silicon nitride cam followers made up to "band-aid" the cam lifter problems we were seeing with the type 1 and type 4 vw's. About the time that Jerry Woods discovered Swepco 306, we were finding out about Brad Penn. None of us had heard of Brad Penn, but were aware that the old green Kendall had changed to gold about the same time we started experiencing cam lifter issues on pushrod engines. Once we switched back to Brad Penn (old Kendall), the problems went away thankfully, as we could no longer get the composite followers since the material became unobtanium and the manufacturer went out of business. So when shops started calling me with wear in overhead cam engines when the API SM standard came out, we had already started paying attention to oils, their formulation, and years of physical teardowns of engines to verify that the chosen lubricants (Brad Penn) were doing their jobs and other oils (like Castrol GTX 20w50) was not.

Since then, many shops independently have verified that Brad Penn, Swepco, and many other "premium" and motorcycle oils are very well capable of protecting our engines. Testing is well more than just posting VOA's on Bob is the Oil Guy. If you look closely, many posters there also sell oil and have their own agendas.

Mine is as such - we spent thousands of dollars on 1) physical VOA testing, 2) weeks of dyno testing, 3) field testing in over the road use in quite a few cars (which we never stopped doing), 4) purchase and review of 40 years of SAE publications on lubrication topics (not cheap), and 5) countless hours reviewing the information into a digestible form for the end user. Time on forums doesn't really count, since I was here before anyways, but we do field many phone calls from more than just Porsche owners with regards to lubricants, which for the first two-ish years I didn't sell any oils and found that it was only fair that if I was recommending and sending my own customers elsewhere to purchase oils, that why shouldn't I try to recoup a small portion of the cost that went into evaluating these oils and to try to cover time that was otherwise taken away from helping other customers and supporting our money generating products. Oil sales are not a sizable portion of our business as most of you already know - ask anyone who carries Swepco and the margins are barely worth even handling the product. We do it out of courtesy (and yes, we do make money on it) and clearly do recommend many other products that likewise we do not sell and tell people where to buy them even if it's not from us.

The whole purpose of this discussion has always been to educate the consumer that there is more to oil than once was.

[uwanna]

Originally Posted by cnavarro

As it has been pointed out many times, there are quite a few choices out there. Brad Penn is but one. And it's well known that you can call up Brad Penn (or Swepco) and they will gladly point you in the direction of a local dealer.

For those of you who have followed this whole debacle, we've been dealing with wear related issues since way before the inception of this thread and even further back to when the API SL rating came out. Many of us in the field were unaware that the problem was oil. We went as far as to have silicon nitride cam followers made up to "band-aid" the cam lifter problems we were seeing with the type 1 and type 4 vw's. About the time that Jerry Woods discovered Swepco 306, we were finding out about Brad Penn. None of us had heard of Brad Penn, but were aware that the old green Kendall had changed to gold about the same time we started experiencing cam lifter issues on pushrod engines. Once we switched back to Brad Penn (old Kendall), the problems went away thankfully, as we could no longer get the composite followers since the material became unobtanium and the manufacturer went out of business. So when shops started calling me with wear in overhead cam engines when the API SM standard came out, we had already started paying attention to oils, their formulation, and years of physical teardowns of engines to verify that the chosen lubricants (Brad Penn) were doing their jobs and other oils (like Castrol GTX 20w50) was not.

Since then, many shops independently have verified that Brad Penn, Swepco, and many other "premium" and motorcycle oils are very well capable of protecting our engines. Testing is well more than just posting VOA's on Bob is the Oil Guy. If you look closely, many posters there also sell oil and have their own agendas.

Mine is as such - we spent thousands of dollars on 1) physical VOA testing, 2) weeks of dyno testing, 3) field testing in over the road use in quite a few cars (which we never stopped doing), 4) purchase and review of 40 years of SAE publications on lubrication topics (not cheap), and 5) countless hours reviewing the information into a digestible form for the end user. Time on forums doesn't really count, since I was here before anyways, but we do field many phone calls from more than just Porsche owners with regards to lubricants, which for the first two-ish years I didn't sell any oils and found that it was only fair that if I was recommending and sending my own customers elsewhere to purchase oils, that why shouldn't I try to recoup a small portion of the cost that went into evaluating these oils and to try to cover time that was otherwise taken away from helping other customers and supporting our money generating products. Oil sales are not a sizable portion of our business as most of you already know - ask anyone who carries Swepco and the margins are barely worth even handling the product. We do it out of courtesy (and yes, we do make money on it) and clearly do recommend many other products that likewise we do not sell and tell people where to buy them even if it's not from us.

The whole purpose of this discussion has always been to educate the consumer that there is more to oil than once was.

Mr Navarro,
Bravo, well said!! This thread sometimes reminds me of the old quote by George Bernard Shaw," Never wrestle with a pig. You both get dirty and the pig enjoys it."
Charles, keep up your good work!

[dmwallace]

As another Pelican who has followed this thread from almost the beginning I really appreciate the work (and education) that Charles, HarryD (who started the thread) and the many others who have posted here have provided.

As more of a novice Porsche owner I'm happy to leverage the testing and research to make the oil decision very easy!

Regards,
David

[nut11]

BP is my peace of mind. The baby's mill purrs w/ an apparent tighter feel and I do not burn the quantity of oil I use to b/t intervals at 4 K miles. It's no contest on choice. As such, I profusely thank Charles for his time and effort generously providing intel that's both interesting to read and easy to understand. As the saying goes..., once you go green, you stay lean and mean. Regards.

87 blk coupe

[Oahu911]

Wow. I've gone through this thread and I'm more confused than ever. Is there an oil I can feel comfortable putting in my 79 SC? Maybe someone should do a poll.

---David

[PatrickB]

Depends on what you have available...
For conventional dino oil, seems like Brad Penn is your best bet...
For synthetics, IMHO, any of the motorcycle oils seem to have the higher numbers...
I have used Mobil1 V-Twin, and am currently using RedLine Motorcycle oil, only because the Napa store down the street stocks it. Also, Amsoil and Royal Purple have motorcycle oil that are both decent picks... I had a chance to talk to the local RedLine Rep, and he said that their automotive lines also have cut buck the numbers on Zinc & Ph, and he also suggested the motorcycle lines!

[uwanna]

Originally Posted by PatrickB

Depends on what you have available...
For conventional dino oil, seems like Brad Penn is your best bet...

Brad Penn is part dino, part synthetic! Look at the bottle.

[yellowperil]

OK, everyone agrees that swepco 201 is THE gear oil for 915's, but what is the concensus on the swepco engine oils? All swepco products are readily available here (surprised me) and the Brad Penn is not available. I am currently using 15/50 Mobile 1, but maybe swepco 15/40 would be a good choice here. ?? I really haven't heard too much about their engine oils, but would like to know. Thanks

[teenerted1]

swepco is one of the top oils in this thread. first page has a good concenus of this whole discussion.