Ultimate Motor Oil Thread or Why we hate CJ4/SM oils

[2002M3Drew]

With the Mobil 1 Zn and Phophorus clearly stated as 1300/1200 ppm nominal in their April of 2009 product PDF, I think the debate over this product is over. Either the formulation on the 15W-50 never changed, or it was changed back based on all of the ire from the Porsche, Corvette, hot rod, boat, and race team feedback.

The Brad Penn stuff, for those of you that have not tried it yet, foams like dishwashing soap (but green) after track use, and raised my temps in my SC on both street and track by 5 to 10 degrees from the prior synthetic I was running. I removed it and have not looked back.

[Wavey]

Probably a re-post from me, but I also tried Brad penn and had problems. I found it smoked quite a bit more than M1 with the GM EOS additive I was previously using. I've since gone back to M1, a 50-50 mix of the regular 15/50 and the V-Twin oil. Very happy with that, much less smoke and I know my lifters are protected.

[cnavarro]

We evaluated the Brad Penn for foaming as the baseline and there were some oils better in that respect, especially motorcycle formulations.

The temperature difference has to do with friction modified versus non-friction modified. Some claim (including Cummins) that friction modifiers lead to more wear. Brad Penn is not friction modified, hence the temperature difference. That said, the Brad Penn can handle severe oil temperatures and holds its viscosity as good as a full syn, even at temperatures well over what is considered normal on a tracked, aircooled engine.

[RWebb]

seems like we may not be too worried re foaming since we have a dry sump -- true?

[cnavarro]

Spot on.

The M96 engine with it's "integrated dry sump" i.e. wet sump has foaming issues...

[teenerted1]

Originally Posted by cnavarro

Some claim (including Cummins) that friction modifiers lead to more wear. Brad Penn is not friction modified, hence the temperature difference. That said, the Brad Penn can handle severe oil temperatures and holds its viscosity as good as a full syn, even at temperatures well over what is considered normal on a tracked, aircooled engine.

i was wondering why i had a temp increase this summer over last when i was still using M1.

been happy with the BP otherwise and still have 3 cases left in the garage from the gruppe buy.

[2002M3Drew]

Originally Posted by cnavarro

Spot on.

The M96 engine with it's "integrated dry sump" i.e. wet sump has foaming issues...

Really? Why wouldn't air entrainment issues apply to a dry sump system? It still means that there is a good amount of air in the oil (enough to foam and/or bubble), and air causes all kinds of problems, including to rod bearings.

[941MXVET]

I'm glad to see this thread still alive. After quite a bit or research, and a few VOA's, I think I've finally settled on Redline for my 964, but I'd use Motul in a heartbeat as well.

Here is a VOA from a sample of Redline 15w-50, I'll post the UOA when I change it out.


Fuel. <.5
Water Neg
V100 19.1
OXI 145
NIT 7
Sulf 133
Cu 0
Fe 2
Cr 0
Pb 0
Al 10
Si 1
Mo 686
Na 15
Mg 7
Sn 0
Zn 1180
Ni 0
K 3
Ca 2408
P 1007

[BSNMOE]

Wavey, I agree. In the past few years I have mixed 20/50 Amsoil Racing oil with their 20/50 motorcycle oil. I used Amsoil Racing because it came in a 20/50. Amsoil now was replaced their 20/50 Racing with 15/50 probably to compare with the 15/50 of Mobil-1. I would rather stick to a 20/50 as I live in SW Fla. so maybe I'll just use M/C oil, however, Amsoil Racing still has a very high Zn & Ph content.

[sig_a]

Originally Posted by 2002M3Drew

Really? Why wouldn't air entrainment issues apply to a dry sump system? It still means that there is a good amount of air in the oil (enough to foam and/or bubble), and air causes all kinds of problems, including to rod bearings.

+1

Mobil 1 15w 50 (and many others) is superior to Brad Penn in every important lubrication area. And it doesn't foam.

Read about it at bobistheoilguy.com

[RWebb]

simply put, the shafts do not sit there in a bath tub and thrash around (mixing air into the oil) - think about a Jacuzzi tub if that helps

I am also surprised by the claim from sig_a.

[2002M3Drew]

RWebb,

I think you are oversimplifying the effect of air in the oil. The issue isn't whether a dry sump system is less likely to cause foam or bubbles. I (and apparently others) have experienced foam in our motors while using BP, where it was not experienced with other products before. (Mine looked like "the Blob" was trying to escape from my oil fill, but I digress...) The comment was that the presence of air/foam/bubbles is not an issue because of the fact that the motor has dry sump. My point is that air entrainment is air entrainment, and air at that heat does bad things. The dry sump does little to mitigate this.

Many purpose-built race motors are dry-sump equipped, and air entrainment is always a concern. Do a quick Google search on "air entrainment and dry sump" or similar terms, and you'll find scores of articles about the problems of air in oil in dry sump motors.

By the way, I'm not sure where your thought about "shafts in a bathtub" came from either. Are you referring to the oil in the oil pan or excess oil around the crankshaft?

[RWebb]

it seems obvious to me that one should worry about the most significant problems first

do you think that is foaming??

[2002M3Drew]

Originally Posted by RWebb

it seems obvious to me that one should worry about the most significant problems first

do you think that is foaming??

Excessive foaming versus (potentially) a Zn and Ph deficiency? Absolutely foaming is a more immediate problem. Beyond that, though, there are a host of options here, including (apparently) Mobil 1, Swepco, JGD, Motul, VR-1, etc. It's not like you have to choose "foam and ZDDP" or "no foam and no ZDDP."

Anyhow, I don't want to come off as a troll, so I'll stop there, but just wanted to report back on the JGR Hot Rod oil, and the more recent chart from Mobil 1 - both of which are relevant to the ZDDP debate.

[cnavarro]

Foaming with the Brad Penn isn't something we had heard about or seen until I saw it posted in this thread a few days ago. There are tons of guys racing on Brad Penn and likewise many builders relying on this product to have not heard of these problems in the years we have been using and recommending them.

That said, it's a free world, use whatever oil you like.

[RWebb]

at minimum, it is an interesting question

I assume Charles would have seen it in testing if it was much of a problem.

Drew - have you seen foaming in races or results attributable to foaming during tear downs?

[scotricker]

After reading through all of this...
I looked at the Brad Penn website, (and charles' site too)

BP now sells both 15-40, and 20-50. It rarely if ever gets below 20 degrees here, so I'm thinking the 20-50 would be fine for all year round , right?

Or is there any reason to consider the 15-40? Because the also recommended Swepco 306 is 15-40.

Presently my car has GTX from the PO.. yikes! that's gotta go!

[Flieger]

How do you know if your Brad Penn is foaming? I do not see anything wrong with mine.

[nize]

Originally Posted by 2002M3Drew

just wanted to report back on the JGR Hot Rod oil, and the more recent chart from Mobil 1 - both of which are relevant to the ZDDP debate.

charts and specs released by the very companies that are trying to promote their own products are completely useless, just fyi.

independent laboratory testing and verification is way more valuable.

[sig_a]

Originally Posted by nize

charts and specs released by the very companies that are trying to promote their own products are completely useless, just fyi.

independent laboratory testing and verification is way more valuable.

Search bobistheoilguy.com for independent oil analysis submitted by normal auto owners. Numerous virgin and used are available for Mobil 1 15 w 50 and Brad Penn.