Ultimate Motor Oil Thread or Why we hate CJ4/SM oils

[PatrickB]

Agreed Ted, however, much has changed since that first page came out...
I posted this earlier, but I did have a recent conversation with my local RedLine Rep.
He admitted that their entire line of synthetic automobile motor oil had ALSO lowered ZDDP.
It was his suggestion that I use their motorcycle oil, as they had NOT lowered ZDDP in that formulation... YET! At this point in time (unless all the oils are tested again) I would think the safest bet is motorcycle oil -- ie; RedLine, Amsoil, Royal Purple, Mobil1 Vtwin, etc...

[RWebb]

I have to say that I am completely uninterested in polls, or a concensus.

What I am interested in is what Charles, Steve Weiner, Grady, Bruce Anderson and other recognized experts have to report -- AND the basis for their expert opinion.

This not a political question and does not involve policy preferences or aesthetics* -- it is a factual issue.


* except the extent that a steaming pile of high alloy junk that used to be a Porsche motor is unaesthetic.

[rickdm]

Ok, just a couple of data points. I have been following the whole oil thread and mostly use my '87 Carrera for DE's, and driving back and forth to the track. The engine was rebuilt about 10,000 miles ago. The first oil change is with Redline 20W-50. For the last 100 miles or so I added half a bottle of GM EOS which might skew a few of the numbers but would not have much effect on the wear.

The second sample is after my second oil change with Brad Penn, very similar mileage and use to the first analysis. As you can see the wear numbers are significantly worse, and the oil temperatures seemed to be about 10 degrees higher on the track. For my latest oil change I have gone back to Redline, and for the next change may try Amsoil to see if I can get those wear numbers down. I have been a big supporter of Brad Penn, but based on my numbers I think I can do better for the track.

[cnavarro]

Thanks for posting your test results. Everyone should invest in oil testing to know what's going on in their engines and how their choice of lubricant and other factors contribute to overall engine health.

I'll add something that probably hasn't been mentioned. Leaded gas causes added wear. It's an abrasive when suspended in the oil. I'd put doubt into the last test only showing trace fuel when other previous samples shows fuel contamination. Lead is a significant contributor to wear. There are numerous citations of the elimination of lead from fuel reducing wear in SAE papers from decades past. Try running unleaded race gas instead for a few oil changes and you'll probably see a reduction in wear.

And as you can see with your previous samples, even small variations in mileage make a difference in results - that can contribute to the differences you're seeing. Blackstone recommended a shorter interval and you went longer than even with the previous sample. We figure no more than 10 hours time on the oil when the car is tracked.

When you figure shorter drain intervals as recommended, the cost becomes a factor in the equation eventually and he results in the grand scheme of things are pretty close, all things considered.

Silicon is an anti-foaming agent; sodium is a detergent/dispersant, like magnesium, which both are much friendlier to the engine than calcium based products.

Temperature difference does not equate to wear. The increased temperature is as of a result of the Brad Penn not being friction modified, where Redline, like Royal Purple, are very friction modified (lots of moly).

[brads911sc]

Charles, I admit i am uneducated about this in spite of my sometimes harsh opinions... I apologize for some of my past harshness...

Questions...

1. They still sell leaded gas?

2. Wouldn't you need to do the analysis with the same gas, same miles, same ambient temps, same overall conditions, driving a similar way to really compare two oil analysis?
I would trust the two results more if EOS hadnt been added to the first sample.
It appears that you had a large increase in iron, sodium, boron, and lead on the first one too... from the 3 tests in 05/06 to 08. COuld any of this been because the oil was in the engine for 2 years? (06 to 08)? or perhaps the gas formulation changed?

In addition the lead wasnt that much higher in the two (20 to 27) and the lead was actually worse with the Redline. Could the 7 point higher on lead be to the 263 additional miles(20%+) and the EOS?

Seems like we really arent comparing apples to apples with these two comparisons.
I am no fan of BP, but I wouldnt be so fast to blame these variables on the oil alone...

[cnavarro]

Yup, leaded race gas is available and plentiful. Every track has it - you can even find it at some gas stations at the pump (just saw this leaving Road America two weeks ago).

I've been getting pretty consistent results in our track Boxster with various different oils, observing similar usage and intervals. You have to figure a few ppm difference is easily in the range of testing error.

I would say all things considered, both the Redline and Brad Penn were acceptable, albeit both were a tad higher than what I've personally seen in my '91 c4 and '99 boxster track car.

[bkreigsr]

good point Charles.
Blackstone also told me that adding octane boost can leave a lead impression on the profile.
I'm cuttently showing 9 ppm for lead and I'm hoping the additive is one of the causes.
Bill K

[rickdm]

Thanks for your comments Charles. At one track session on the Redline oil I went to add race fuel to raise my octane and stupidly put in about ten gallons of leaded race gas (should have known why the nozzle didn't fit). I did not use any leaded gas on the BP fill, but clearly there was still a trace amount. Normally I am pretty god about keeping track of how many track sessions I do, but with my last BP change I have had brake light issues, motion sickness and other things that have made me miss multiple sessions, thus the longer mileage and time interval.

My feeling about oil temperature is that if it was the difference between 210 and 220 I wouldn't worry about it, but the difference has been between 230 and 240, and at 240 I pull off the track. Texas summers are tough on an air cooled engine.

Thank you,

[cnavarro]

As long as you have good oil pressure at 240F, you're still perfectly fine. I have customers who have observed their engines after a race season with teardowns and found the engines look perfect even with oil temps as high as 300F (again, as long as you have enough pressure), with the Brad Penn.

It might take a few changes to get the traces of lead and moly from showing in a sampling of Brad Penn, as it's damn near impossible to get all the old oil out.

For the beating you're giving the engine, the results look good regardless. I'm not too concerned with location averages as reported by Blackstone either - too many variables to compare with other cars, oils, etc.

[dan79brooklyn]

I have been using Mobil 1 Racing 4T 10W-40 Motorcycle Oil for the last two years with just a yearly change. I chose this oil after reading about it on this thread and I wanted an oil that I can use all year round. I see that Brad Penn also has an motorcycle oil 10-40 weight, are there any advantages to using this over the regular Brad Penn? My oil analysis came back good even after 8000 miles on the Mobil 1, Brad Penn is a bit cheaper would it be Ok to keep BP in for this long, or should I stick with the Mobil 1....?

[cnavarro]

I've never used the motorcycle Brad Penn nor tested it - it is a fully synthetic product and is just tinted green, nothing like the semi-syn. From the oil distributor, it's marketed as an alternative to the M1 V-Twin and 4T Racing products, so should be just as good as either of those two I would imagine.

[dan79brooklyn]

Thanks Charles,
I'm tempted to try the BP, but I think I will stick with the Mobil 1 since I've been using it previously.
I will update this thread with my oil analysis when I get around to switching out the M1.

[K-Jetronic]

For your info:

Changed to BP 20w50 1 year ago.
Porsche oil filter.
Rebuilt engine, total 20000km.
No oil use.
Occasional track day.
Europe, mostly summer use, mild temperatures.
Fuel, unleaded 98 octane (europe).

Previous oil Mobil 1 0w40. Both drainplugs would show a little grey/white sludge like substance. No oil use, no smoke upon start cold or warm.

After change to BP, oil temperature a little bit higher. Little smoke upon startup after warm start (cold nothing). No oil use, oil pressure about the same when warm. Drainplugs, engine crankcase CLEAN! Oil tank very, very little black film on plug.

[azasadny]

I'm running AMSOIL 5W30 in my 2010 MazdaSpeed3 and AMSOIL 20W50 in my 1974 Porsche 911 and I've been very happy with the results, although I have not sent in any oil samples to be tested. My results are strictly empirical and the engine temps are down and the mileage is up, which both satisfy me. Both cars get the oil and filter changed out every 4-5k miles.

[175K911]

Originally Posted by PatrickB

Agreed Ted, however, much has changed since that first page came out...
I posted this earlier, but I did have a recent conversation with my local RedLine Rep.
He admitted that their entire line of synthetic automobile motor oil had ALSO lowered ZDDP.
It was his suggestion that I use their motorcycle oil, as they had NOT lowered ZDDP in that formulation... YET! At this point in time (unless all the oils are tested again) I would think the safest bet is motorcycle oil -- ie; RedLine, Amsoil, Royal Purple, Mobil1 Vtwin, etc...

I've been very happy with the BP in my 911 (purchased from Charles), but thought I'd explore my options as well. So I emailed Redline this morning and this is the response I received relative to ZDDP:

Ed,
Thank you for contacting Red Line Oil, you can still rely on Red Line to provide proper protection for your Porsche, we haven't reduced the protection. The Motor Oils contain 0.12% phosphorus and 0.13% zinc, the Race Oil 0.25% phosphorus and 0.24% zinc.

Typically in the oil/air cooled Porsche engines I recommend the 10W40, a good all around viscosity for these engines.
The Race Oils don't contain the detergent levels necessary for street use or an extended drain interval.

Regards, Dave
Red Line Oil


So it appears this contradicts what a rep told Patrick about reduced levels and that the street oil still has sufficient zinc and phosphorus for out engines for street use. I'm intrigued by the ZDDP levels in the race oil though. Obviously at the expense of detergent packages which I don't need in a track motor that gets it's oil changed every 8-10 hours.

[Steve W]

I think the negative of the Redline oils is the high calcium levels used for extended drain intervals.

[flatsixjunky]

Originally Posted by K-Jetronic

For your info:

Changed to BP 20w50 1 year ago.
Porsche oil filter.
Rebuilt engine, total 20000km.
No oil use.
Occasional track day.
Europe, mostly summer use, mild temperatures.
Fuel, unleaded 98 octane (europe).

Previous oil Mobil 1 0w40. Both drainplugs would show a little grey/white sludge like substance. No oil use, no smoke upon start cold or warm.

After change to BP, oil temperature a little bit higher. Little smoke upon startup after warm start (cold nothing). No oil use, oil pressure about the same when warm. Drainplugs, engine crankcase CLEAN! Oil tank very, very little black film on plug.

Hello k-jetronic

Are you talking about Brad Penn oil or British Pet oil? If it is Brad Penn where do you get yours here in Europe? On 10W40 I can only find Motul V300 or Kennol, there's no Mobil 1 10W40 around.

Thank you,

Orlando

[K-Jetronic]

....no I am talking Brad Penn 20w50 racing oil from the Dutch importer,

D&S AMERICAN MUSCLE

Mobil 1 I have been using is 0w40.

...very expensive by the way. I pay more per qt for BP than for a liter of M1.

[stevep2000]

Apologies for extending this thread once more, but looking at oil options from the limited range available in the UK. Seems from some of what I've read (Haven't read all 6o+pages though) that motorbike oils are closer in matching the needs of the old air-cooled engines, so wondering whether this offering from Silkolene is likely to be a good option?

Silkolene PRO 4 10w-40 Full Synthetic Ester 4-Stroke Engine Oil For All High Performance MotorcyclesSilkolene PRO 4 10w-40 Full Synthetic Ester 4-Stroke Engine Oil For All High Performance Motorcycles

Currrently run the standard car Pro-S 5w40, but this may be a better match, and slightly cheaper to boot?

[333pg333]

Has anyone discussed what effects using E85 as a fuel source may have? As Charles describes that leaded fuels can have an effect, I wonder what using E85 could possibly do? As far as forced induction motors go, it's a Godsend of a fuel. Way cheaper than race fuel.