Ultimate Motor Oil Thread or Why we hate CJ4/SM oils

[dmwallace]

Hcoles,

Re. your inquiry to Brad Penn - did you email them using their web site form?
http://www.bradpennracing.com/contact.asp

I have made a couple of inquiries to the company using this form and received a prompt response within a day or so. In my area there was a distributor about 15 miles away; I called them to confirm and they had a case sitting on the counter by the time that I got there.

Good luck with your search.

David.

[cnavarro]

According to Brad Penn, the 20w50 is safe for starts as low as 20F.

[JGalt]

Gentlemen in the know:

Do the current crop of racing oils contain detergents? My recollection from the dark ages is that racing oils were generally non-detergent and therefore not really appropriate for extended interval street use.

Anybody have thoughts or comments?

[hcoles]

David, I thought I used that link... will try again..
Charles... thx re. as low as 20F

[oldschoollear]

One question, and I hate to add fuel to the fire. Has anyone ever used aviation oil( aeroshell)? Piston driven aeroplanes are air cooled. I'm not thinking of doing it, just a thought.

[Steve@Rennsport]

Originally Posted by JGalt

Gentlemen in the know:

Do the current crop of racing oils contain detergents? My recollection from the dark ages is that racing oils were generally non-detergent and therefore not really appropriate for extended interval street use.

Anybody have thoughts or comments?

Some PURE racing oils contain no detergents and those products should be drained after each race weekend. Examples of these are Joe Gibbs oils, some Redline oils, and the NFS Valvolines. The old Castrol R was one of these, as well

The Brad-Penn, Swepco, & Royal Purple products all contain sufficient detergents to be left in the motor for several thousand miles.

[Mysterytrain]

So, lets see. Since I have dumped a large some of money into my 3.2 SS it looks like I need to re-evaluate the oil that I will use. It seems that my choices at this point in time are going to require having a case of Brad Penn or Swepco shipped to my door or finding a local cycle shop that sells mobil v twin 20-50. Now out of my current choices only swepco is pure dino, Brad Penn a blend and Mobil 1 V twin pure synthetic. It also appears that Brad Penn is the most cost effective. I would love to hear from pelicans that have been using this stuff..I'm due for an oil change!

[dmwallace]

Ron,

I put Brad Penn 20w-50 in my '89 not long before its sale. It might be my imagination but I thought the car revved more easily and also idled quieter than before the oil change. If that is what you decide to go with you can go on their web site, click contact and ask them who is the closest distributor. I would think in NJ they would have at least one distributor.

Regards,
David

[moneymanager]

Autobarn on line sells SL/SM Mobil 1 15-50 (the one which DOES NOT say Extended Performance on the label) which has plenty of the proper chemicals at $6.99. Their shipping charge is very modest, especially if you buy in quantity.
No interest etc...just a happy customer. Mobil's labelling and marketting here are very confusing. I have a picture of the right stuff I'll send along if anyone is interested. Tried to post it here and it won't go for some reason.

[tchanson]

Originally Posted by moneymanager

Autobarn on line sells SL/SM Mobil 1 15-50 (the one which DOES NOT say Extended Performance on the label) which has plenty of the proper chemicals at $6.99.

I don't believe Charles shares that opinion. I and a few others had asked that question earlier in this thread re the reintroduced, non-EP, silver cap M1 15w50. Its apparently not the same as the old red cap M1 15w50, nor does it contain the same ZDDP levels. For our cars, it appears that the two motorcycle oils (M1 V-Twin 20w50 or M1 MXT 10w40) are the best M1 options.

Originally Posted by cnavarro

According to VOA done earlier this year on the new 'non-ep' does not have the same levels as the old, good stuff, and is more like the 0w40 product, which I guess is just OK for a new Porsche, but no good for an old one. Again, this is my personal opinion and not the opinon of Porsche and Mobil's advertising on Porsche's behalf, but I'll never go back to m1 15w50, but that's just me. There are many on this board who have gone to the M1 V-Twin 20w50 or the MX4T 10w40 (for those who like a bit lighter oil) and have been very pleased. Even a handful stopped by my table at the German Auto Fest to tell me so :-)

Tim

[GothingNC]

Originally Posted by Mysterytrain

So, lets see. Since I have dumped a large some of money into my 3.2 SS it looks like I need to re-evaluate the oil that I will use. It seems that my choices at this point in time are going to require having a case of Brad Penn or Swepco shipped to my door or finding a local cycle shop that sells mobil v twin 20-50. Now out of my current choices only swepco is pure dino, Brad Penn a blend and Mobil 1 V twin pure synthetic. It also appears that Brad Penn is the most cost effective. I would love to hear from pelicans that have been using this stuff..I'm due for an oil change!

Or you could pick up some Royal Purple.

The local NAPA & Pep Boys in my area carry RP.

It's only about $54 + 18 shipping for a case of Brad Penn from LNEngineering.

http://www.lnengineering.com/store/catalog/index.php

I've heard lots of good things about BP oil on Pelican/Rennlist and other classic car forums.

[911pcars]

Cost comparison.
Maybe it's just me, but if the oil capacity in my engine were typically 4 qts., purchasing an engine lube with the correct amount of ZDDP would be fine, even though the cost is higher than the "regular" lubes. E.g. 4 qts. x $3 = $12.00; 4 qts. x $4 = $16

However, at 9-11 quarts, it can be more cost effective to add the ideal amount of ZDDP oil additive into the otherwise good quality lube. Multi-viscosity choices and availability are wider as well.
11 qts. x
$3 = $33
$4 = $44
$5 = $55
$6 = $66
vs.
11 qts. x $2 = $22 + $8 oil additive = $30

Your oil price, your MMV.

Sherwood

[RWebb]

The last 'regular' Mobil One I bought has adequate Zn levels.

Can you not find that?

[rfuerst911sc]

Originally Posted by cnavarro

I'll let you know on the VR-1 non-street-legal. I currently running it in my 911 just to see how quickly the detergent actually gets used up, since I had the exact same question myself. I'll switch back to either Swepco 306 or Brad Penn once I get enough time/miles (which will be very shortly) on the oil.

I was told somewhere that they didn't recommend more than 1000 mi, but figuring we have somewhere near three times the capacity, that 3000 mi would be a good starting point. I'd most definately defer to used oil analysis to be 100% sure.

Charles after we posted our questions on here about VR1 I sent a email request to Valvoline asking if VR1 is O.K. to use on a street 911 engine with no cat converter and they responded with a positive yes. Then I sent a follow up email asking specifically about drain intervals for "standard" VR1 vs. " not for street use " VR1. They stated a 3,000 mile interval for the standard formula but only a 500 mile interval for the not street legal formula. They did not give any specifics as to why but I assume it is based on detergent packages? Not sure if this data helps or hurts this discussion but I thought I would share. Do you have any results back from your own use in your 911?

[moneymanager]

It's a measure of how confusing this debate is that there is so much opinion on this subject. I may be out of date here but as I understand the data, Mobil 1 without Extended Performance and with Super Syn is a fine choice for the earlier cars.
From Charles' lnengineering.com /oil web site. “The new (Extended Performance) SM formulation Mobil 1 15w50 EP has…greatly reduced Zn & P levels. (The SM standard calls for Zn & P levels under .08%, while SJ called for 0.10% or less.) I strongly recommend those using Mobil 1 15w50 Extended Performance switch to Mobil's newest non-extended performance 15w50 formulation with… higher levels of Zn & P." So avoid the Extended Performance in an earlier car.

Looking at his test results, Charles notes that Mobil 1, 15-50W Super Syn WITHOUT extended performance , has excellent levels of Zn (0.134%) & P (0.139%). As I read his data, this oil meets specs SM/SL/SJ...not quite as high as the Mobil V-Twin motorcycle oil (which has the same P level but much higher ZN in his test results,) but well above the SM 8% standard (for both) he believes is too low, and well above the minimum standard I believe he is suggesting we observe...12% for both.

But everything depends on which Mobil 1 you are looking at. I see another one listed in 15-50 without SuperSyn which shows inadequate levels of Zn and P by Charles' standard.

[Mysterytrain]

Thanks for the replies. This has been one of the more interesting threads in a while. It has also been one of the more confusing. I researched Valvoline and didn't get the feeling that their racing oil wanted to live in the engine much longer then a race weekend. I've used GTX for years and when the case was split the crank and cams looked pretty amazing for a high mileage engine. The nice thing about 20-50 GTX was I could get it anywhere. Alas, those days are over. I would still like to continue with the 3k/4k drain intervals. That schedule makes Mobil 1 V twin a bit expensive. Brad Penn looks like a good price point/quality choice and of course, Swepco is temping because I can buy it here and its all dino....I really hate engine leaks. Bottomline is that I'm going to have to order a couple of cases of something so that I always have it when I need it. I contacted Brad Penn today, they got back to me and said they have a dealer in North Jersey.

[cnavarro]

No, the newest non-extended performance m1 15w50 is not something I recommend using without supplementing Zn and P. This was the latest test result:

Mobil 1 15w50 P 952 Zn 1030 API SM 03/07, tested by Staveley NA.

This puts it right at what M1 0w40 API SM is rated.

I apologize for this statement: "I strongly recommend those using Mobil 1 15w50 Extended Performance switch to Mobil's newest non-extended performance 15w50 formulation with… higher levels of Zn & P." So avoid the Extended Performance in an earlier car."

It slipped through the cracks. I was actually just now proof-reading and have found lots of little bits that need updating...

As far as the VR-1, their marketing staff who answer the emails are full of it. The normal VR-1 API SM isn't good for us anymore - I have had a customer have a failure with this oil as late as a few weeks ago. He was unaware of a formulation change and had been working off old stock in his shop. The new VR-1 according to its MSDS shows ~800ppm.

I'll let you know how the TBN did on the VR-1 non-street-legal. I have some samples with about six months and 1500 mi on it out for testing.

[moneymanager]

Thanks for clarifying. But I'm concerned about the test results which seemingly were the basis for the earlier statement. Do you often see these sorts of variations in testing...ie 8-9% in one test and 13-14% (for Zn and P) in others? Or do you think the formulation was again adjusted. Hard to know what to rely on here. Thanks,

[rfuerst911sc]

Originally Posted by cnavarro

No, the newest non-extended performance m1 15w50 is not something I recommend using without supplementing Zn and P. This was the latest test result:

Mobil 1 15w50 P 952 Zn 1030 API SM 03/07, tested by Staveley NA.

This puts it right at what M1 0w40 API SM is rated.

I apologize for this statement: "I strongly recommend those using Mobil 1 15w50 Extended Performance switch to Mobil's newest non-extended performance 15w50 formulation with… higher levels of Zn & P." So avoid the Extended Performance in an earlier car."

It slipped through the cracks. I was actually just now proof-reading and have found lots of little bits that need updating...

As far as the VR-1, their marketing staff who answer the emails are full of it. The normal VR-1 API SM isn't good for us anymore - I have had a customer have a failure with this oil as late as a few weeks ago. He was unaware of a formulation change and had been working off old stock in his shop. The new VR-1 according to its MSDS shows ~800ppm.

I'll let you know how the TBN did on the VR-1 non-street-legal. I have some samples with about six months and 1500 mi on it out for testing.

Charles that's why I posted my email results as marketing guys would lie to their mother. I'm hoping your results with the non street legal version are good as it's a viable over the counter easily available oil for me. If not Brad Penn it is. Once again thank you for your hard work teaching the air cooled community about this issue.

[tchanson]

Thanks for the clarification, Charles.

I was quite certain that there was no question as to which 15w50 M1 we were all discussing, as there are only two (EP and the recently added new non-EP) currently on the market.

I had hoped, in vain as it turns out, that the non-EP M1 15w50 would be similar to the discontinued red cap M1 15w50, which was the reason for my initial question in this thread several weeks ago.

Frankly, I'm baffled as to why E-M would offer what appears to be a non solution to the ZDDP issue in this new non-EP M1 15w50. Given that it must be a fairly narrow niche of people like us interested in this stuff, why not just reintroduce the red cap 15w50, or a formula similar to the adequate ZDDP levels in Castrol's recently introduced Syntec Classic and be done with it?

In any event, the M1 V-Twin 20w50 looks like a good, albeit pricey, alternative, especially with its anti-corrosion performance, for cars like mine that sit in winter storage for months at a time.

Incidentally, (before this issue became known, in my defense...) I idiotically stocked up on the gold cap M1 EP 15w50 a few years ago when Wal Mart was clearing out the large size. I've got 6 remaining new 5 quart jugs of this stuff in the shop. If anyone can use it for another application, feel free to make me an offer...


Tim