Ultimate Motor Oil Thread or Why we hate CJ4/SM oils

[BLEW911]

While coresponding with Patty Copper, STP customer services rep. She stated the blue bottle does NOT contain viscosity enhancers and when added to 5 to 6 quarts of motor oil as instructed will not increase viscosity. Is she blowin' smoke?

Don

[JGalt]

A friend just received the following response from Ashland (Valvoline) regarding the new oil formulations:

The oil industry per ILSAC had to only decrease the levels of ZDDP (Zinc) in certain viscosity to meet new emission standards. The ILSAC rated oils still have an average of .085 levels of zinc. Testing has shown on standard OEM set ups that used mild camshafts will still get plenty of protection from the new rated oils. There is an exception when it comes to extreme aftermarket applications. If you have a high performance solid lifter set up with an aggressive cam then you will need to use a quality Racing Oil or Fleet Oil for break in and normal usage. These oils have an increased level of Zinc that will range from .14 to .16 and will provide plenty of protection.
The consensus in the industry is that the current chemical limits of the GF-4/SM category are still sufficient to protect all "street" engines, including older flat tappet roller engines. The engine tests required for a GF-4/SM product is just as severe as the older, higher ZDDP allowed category. For the special applications (aggressive cams, high HP racing motors, etc) where the customer needs more ZDDP protection, our NON-GF-4 products still contain the higher levels (such as VR-1 and "not street legal" racing).


To: VWEBMAIL@Ashland

[Scott at Pelican Parts]

The 4 grades of Swepco 306 motor oil are available at Pelican. You can find it here.

[911pcars]

John Walker:
from the competition cams website....

Engine Break-In Oil Additive Case - 12 (12oz.) Bottles
PART #159-12

DESCRIPTION:

COMP Cams® Engine Break-In Oil Additive

Time marches on . . . and generally that’s a good thing. But unfortunately, over time, some of the good stuff can get left behind. COMP Cams® Engine Break-In Oil Additive brings back the good stuff, delivering a specially engineered blend of extreme pressure break-in additives that have been removed from current off-the-shelf motor oils. Delivering added protection during the break-in process and beyond for all engine components, including the camshaft and lifters, COMP Cams® Engine Break-in Oil Additive is compatible with any petroleum, synthetic or blended motor oil.

COMP Cams® Engine Break-In Oil Additive extends the durability of internal engine components, protecting against premature camshaft, lifter and valve train failure. Best of all, COMP Cams® Engine Break-In Oil Additive has proven to deliver long term benefits with new or rebuilt engines through continued usage. Simply pour in a bottle for initial break-in, run the engine for approximately 1,000 miles, drain the system thoroughly and then refill with clean oil and another bottle of COMP Cams® Engine Break-In Oil Additive at each oil change. Part #159-12 consists of one dozen 12 oz bottles of engine break in lubricant.

Another option, as suggested by John, is to add an oil supplement to the regular engine lube. My current choice is Crane's Super Lube Break-In Concentrate. As for zinc, it bests GM's EOS by substantial margins. And since EOS has been discontinued, its price has escalated way beyond its retail price. The Crane product is available from the usual hot rod suppliers.

Oil additive compilation chart; can't vouch for it's accuracy:
http://sterkel.org/avanti/documents/oil_series_for_classic_cars.htm

Sherwood

[HarryD]

Originally Posted by JGalt

A friend just received the following response from Ashland (Valvoline) regarding the new oil formulations:

The oil industry per ILSAC had to only decrease the levels of ZDDP (Zinc) in certain viscosity to meet new emission standards.

OK, which ones?

The ILSAC rated oils still have an average of .085 levels of zinc. Testing has shown on standard OEM set ups that used mild camshafts will still get plenty of protection from the new rated oils. )

Current data appears to support 1200+ ppm levels (0.12%) for our air cooled cars.

There is an exception when it comes to extreme aftermarket applications. If you have a high performance solid lifter set up with an aggressive cam then you will need to use a quality Racing Oil or Fleet Oil for break in and normal usage. These oils have an increased level of Zinc that will range from .14 to .16 and will provide plenty of protection.

Yep, like a 911.

The consensus in the industry is that the current chemical limits of the GF-4/SM category are still sufficient to protect all "street" engines, including older flat tappet roller engines.

Who formed this consesus? Old hot rodders? People who only own cars 5 years or newer?

I thought you had a flat tappet OR a roller tappet, What is a "flat tappet roller engine?"

The engine tests required for a GF-4/SM product is just as severe as the older, higher ZDDP allowed category. For the special applications (aggressive cams, high HP racing motors, etc) where the customer needs more ZDDP protection, our NON-GF-4 products still contain the higher levels (such as VR-1 and "not street legal" racing).

To: VWEBMAIL@Ashland

So we do need the higher levels then!

Confused? I am (but maybe I am handicapped since I have an Engineering degree).

What a bunch of double talk....

[Steve@Rennsport]

Originally Posted by HarryD

What a bunch of double talk....

Hi Harry:

That mirrors the "information" that I received from Valvoline after I asked detailed questions about the ZDDP content in their products and the need for it. "Doublespeak" is what most corporations are good at since Customer Service folks are an arm of Marketing.

Cams, rockers/followers/lifters are not the only place where ZDDP is useful. Pistons, rings. and bearings are the other, especially at startup and when the engine is at peak temps.

IMHO, the reduction-elimination of Zn & P in motor oils will prove to be a virtual windfall for the Automobile industry in terms of parts replacement and repairs. Although this was mandated by the Feds, it will be "good for bidness" as they say unless people carefully chose what they use in ALL their cars.

[HarryD]

Originally Posted by Steve@Rennsport

Hi Harry:

That mirrors the "information" that I received from Valvoline after I asked detailed questions about the ZDDP content in their products and the need for it. "Doublespeak" is what most corporations are good at since Customer Service folks are an arm of Marketing.

Cams, rockers/followers/lifters are not the only place where ZDDP is useful. Pistons, rings. and bearings are the other, especially at startup and when the engine is at peak temps.

IMHO, the reduction-elimination of Zn & P in motor oils will prove to be a virtual windfall for the Automobile industry in terms of parts replacement and repairs. Although this was mandated by the Feds, it will be "good for bidness" as they say unless people carefully chose what they use in ALL their cars.

Sigh.....

It is sad that, in the "information age", getting good information is so hard.

If I may pick you brain, what are your thoughts on later cars then? I am thinking specifically of my other cars which I hope to keep until they hit 150,000+ miles.

[Steve@Rennsport]

Originally Posted by HarryD

Sigh.....

It is sad that, in the "information age", getting good information is so hard.

If I may pick you brain, what are your thoughts on later cars then? I am thinking specifically of my other cars which I hope to keep until they hit 150,000+ miles.

Thats quite true and especially when potential sales income generates a conflict of interest,.... For most oil companies or marketeers, its all about selling-selling-selling and that eliminates objectivity. After all, if anything bad happens from using a particular lubricant, its almost impossible to establish blame and VERY expensive to pursue.

My advice about oils applies to pretty much everything. The only exceptions are engines using variable valve timing controlled by hydraulics that require specific viscosities to operate correctly.

[RWebb]

I take it that "extreme aftermarket applications" include many/most 911 drivers(?)

"If you have a high performance solid lifter set up..." then you are probably driving a... (Stock) 911.

And if you have a 911, then you have a car "with an aggressive cam."

- eh

[drauz]

Charles (& other oil enthusiasts), Can you address the use of STP Red vs Blue as a source of ZDDP? Their website description does not clarify the distinctions. Is either good (or neither)? One better than the other? & why? Any interactions to beware of (dino vs synth)?

Many thanks for all the expertise & rational idscourse on an important matter. I don't think we can rely upon the oil & additive makers to be completely open.

[cnavarro]

The Red STP has more Zn and P than the Blue. The blue is also much thicker.

But really, it should be easy enough to find an oil with the right levels to start, and just not need to add any STP (or other additivies) at all.

[hcoles]

It is starting to look like the Brad Penn Oil is good enough, no additives necessary, and should be priced low compared to other choices. This will help re. more frequent changes. The question is which BP Oil... the BP website lists a number of them that seem to be a good match for my car (89 3.2 basically stock, some DE/AX and daily with short trips (short trips can't really be avoided)

....e.g.:

product code 7129 Premium Penn Grade 10W-40
product code 7123 Premium Penn Grade 20W-50
product code 7119 Penn Grade 1 Racing 20W-50

Which one?

thx.

PS: maybe someone would like to post a chart with key attributes/pros/cons and price per quart, not that price is most important but is a factor.

[911pcars]

Originally Posted by drauz

Charles (& other oil enthusiasts), Can you address the use of STP Red vs Blue as a source of ZDDP? Their website description does not clarify the distinctions. Is either good (or neither)? One better than the other? & why? Any interactions to beware of (dino vs synth)?

Many thanks for all the expertise & rational idscourse on an important matter. I don't think we can rely upon the oil & additive makers to be completely open.

I posted the link above:
http://sterkel.org/avanti/documents/oil_series_for_classic_cars.htm

To make it easier, here's the chart:


I can't vouch for the numbers. If STP in the blue bottle isn't on the chart, I'm assuming its percentage of ZDDP doesn't qualify it. Do you really need a viscosity index improver?

Sherwood

[cnavarro]

The only Brad Penn product that I currently run in a 911 is the Brad Penn Penn-Grade 1 Racing 20w50 (with exception of the break-in product they sell for new engines). They are currently working on formulating a 10w40 for year-round use in milder climates, but that's what we have Swepco in the 15w40 for.

[drauz]

thanks, Charles, good advice, as always. Sherwood, that's a great link, thanks as well. I guess many of us just want a product (synth and dino style) that explicitly addresses our old Porsche engine's requirements, available at a flaps anywhere in the good ole USA. not too simple while all this transition to catalyst-friendly / mpg enhancing oil takes place.

[911pcars]

Apparently, Brad Penn Oil is an updated version of the same green stuff Kendall used to put inside their cans of GT-1. Kendall, the company, was bought out, then went another direction with mass-market oil, but the green oil Brad Penn processes is still available, now in a partially-synthetic mix.

An internet search shows it can be purchased for $2.38-$4.66/qt. (the higher price was from Ebay and includes shipping) and it depends on where you are relative to a store that carries it. Unless BP oil is available locally, it gets expensive to put it in your mailbox, which then makes Mobil 1 and other lubes look like a pretty good deal. If one wants the solution at the LAPS, I'd look for an otherwise good HD oil, then fortify that with a good additive package. That's what people were doing before EOS became NLA on the GM shelf. There are other alternatives besides NLA EOS, so says the chart.

Seems like BP oil is the talk of the car forums. I think there are other, equipvalent options.

Sherwood

[old man neri]

Just curious. Has anyone ever looked at aviation oils? Those single engine airplanes still use leaded fuel and are of an older design so I wonder if the oils they use are of an older blend?

[Steve@Rennsport]

Aircraft oils are poorly suited for automobile engines. Among other things, the bromide salts used for lead scavenging are corrosive as hell and those engines suffer accordingly.

Further, they are not made for medium to high RPM engines and contain little or no anti-foam agents.

I would stick to oils made for cars or in some cases, motorcycles.

[cgarr]

The only av oil we use is the straight AeroShell mineral oil for break in only. I don't even run av oil in the planes anymore.

[hcoles]

re. Brad Penn - I emailed them but no reply... I wanted a place where I could drive and buy near San Jose CA. I could have posted the question on the wrong branch at the BP site. In any case if someone knows great or I'll call them.
Charles - just confirming that the BP Racing 20-50 is ok for my area... very rare starts at below 32F, maybe only a couple per year.