I make Parallel Flow Micro-Channel Condensers for 911's front and rear

[khamul02]

Indeed both of these things have been covered. I think retro air was the first to come up with and offer the higher cfm blower motor: Porsche 911 Air Conditioning

[kuehl]

Indubitably correct! And a fine product too.
However the Kuehl Hurricane blower motor has been tested and shown to put out more air and is simpler to install:



and our host offers it here on this site:

[KelogGes]

Sorry I have been too busy filling orders to have much time to post here lately

[wwest]

Originally Posted by kuehl

This has been discussed in other threads, however:

On a LH drive 'factory' Behr brand (evap) system there are 2 air inlet to the evaporator box, one under the driver's side foot board and one under the passg. side. Discussing the passg one would assume the factory carpets and any added carpets might reduce the air flow into the evap box, and there has been suggestion that the factory fan speed control resistor pack in the same intake plenum might reduces air flow. Logically it makes sense however in practical terms (testing) there is little if any difference if you remove the carpets or remove fan speed control resistor pack. If you wish to determine how much of a change there could be then simply place an anemometer (device to measure air speed) in front of a vent and an amp meter to the evaporator motor. If you see a 'measureable' improvement with the anemometer then you proved your theory.
If you see an increase in amp draw (motor driven fans typically draw less current when their intake is blocked and more current when they have more air to pull or push) you also proved your theory.

With the regard to 'vents' .... the more the better.
Pelican Parts - Product Information: PEL-GR-KUVNT

Or simply crank up the volume with higher out put blower motor.
Pelican Parts - Product Information: 911-624-899-00-M207

'88 Carrera, the following air speed measurements were made with a Kestrel 4000 Iss 2.09. A/C blower MAX, engine not running, battery charge stable at 75-76%. Holding anemometer about 1inch centered on vent.

L. vent/L-ctr/R-ctr/R. vent

Factory config.
10.7/8.6/8.5/10.8

Passenger side carpets and footboard removed.
13.2/8.2/8.7/10.9

Plastic duct, resistor pack, removed.
14.8/10.8/12.5/11.5

With cubby cover open, plastic duct removed, and bonnet open the system takes in fresh air along with cabin/recirc.

[llangston1]

Does a keuhl motor in a backdated evaporator top provide substantially more airflow than the standard '87 blower motor?

[Mitch Leland]

That seems to be a significant increase in airflow... I've often wondered if you could put a grille on the passenger toe board that would give a direct flow from the cabin into the evaporator box? I know from my construction days that you have to have equal CFM (make-up air) in to get CFM out.

It seems to me that when you're looking at a sub-standard A/C system like ours you want to tweak every possibility.

[scottb]

Has anyone installed one of these yet? If so...give us a report!

[kuehl]

Originally Posted by llangston1

Does a keuhl motor in a backdated evaporator top provide substantially more airflow than the standard '87 blower motor?

Yes. The Kuehl Wirbelsturm (Hurricane) Evaporator Blower Motor out performs
both the earlier version (1970-1985) and later version (1986-1986) blower boxes and motors.

You can read about the comparison
HERE



Porsche 911 evaporator blower motor tests, Porsche 930 evaporator blower motor tests, Kuehl Wirbelsturm Hurricane Evaporator Blower Motor, 901-624-901-00,911-624-899-00

[wwest]

Originally Posted by kuehl

Yes. The Kuehl Wirbelsturm (Hurricane) Evaporator Blower Motor out performs
both the earlier version (1970-1985) and later version (1986-1986) blower boxes and motors.

You can read about the comparison
HERE



Porsche 911 evaporator blower motor tests, Porsche 930 evaporator blower motor tests, Kuehl Wirbelsturm Hurricane Evaporator Blower Motor, 901-624-901-00,911-624-899-00

Don't you really mean to say..."maybe"..."


Bench testing, as you did, may well turn out to be meaningless when the blower is installed in the actual work environment. You need to re-test in the same method I did before answering "YES".

[kuehl]

Originally Posted by wwest

Don't you really mean to say..."maybe"..."


Bench testing, as you did, may well turn out to be meaningless when the blower is installed in the actual work environment. You need to re-test in the same method I did before answering "YES".

West

Apples and oranges. Your off topic.

Your post attempted to address whether there was an increase in air flow if things were or were not in front of the RH side air intake.

The post you are addressing discusses the differences between the 2 versions of the OEM blower top and the Kuehl blower motor asked by "llangston1".

However, going back to your topic, we'd be interested in seeing what you mean in terms of the nomenclature you have noted with respect to the numbers "10.7/8.6/8.5/10.8" do you mean MPH, km/hr, knots, m/sec, fpm, Beaaort force or an estimated cfm?

And, to answer your question, "yes" we ran tests on the theory of articles blocking the RH side air inlet some time ago... 'minimal' affect.

Griff

[69BahamaYellow]

I live in Central TX with 100 deg+ days most of the summer. I have actually rigged up my manifold guages, so I can read Hi/low side pressures while driving on the interstate @ 70MPH (engine lid down / windows closed, of course). On 100 deg days my system cools fine and engine temp is normal, but high side pressures are 375psi plus (running 134a with factory tube/fin condenser). I'd sure like to get my high side pressures down, and KellogGes' parallel flow condenser should theoretically do that.

Lots of good info here, but sure would like to hear about a real in car test from one of KellogGes' actual customers.

[Joeaksa]

Originally Posted by kuehl

Yes. The Kuehl Wirbelsturm (Hurricane) Evaporator Blower Motor out performs
both the earlier version (1970-1985) and later version (1986-1986) blower boxes and motors.

You can read about the comparison
HERE



Porsche 911 evaporator blower motor tests, Porsche 930 evaporator blower motor tests, Kuehl Wirbelsturm Hurricane Evaporator Blower Motor, 901-624-901-00,911-624-899-00

Are the motors available for a change? We tried to buy several and after calling twice were told "none available until further notice" and we do not need them in December!

[KelogGes]

Originally Posted by 69BahamaYellow

I live in Central TX with 100 deg+ days most of the summer. I have actually rigged up my manifold guages, so I can read Hi/low side pressures while driving on the interstate @ 70MPH (engine lid down / windows closed, of course). On 100 deg days my system cools fine and engine temp is normal, but high side pressures are 375psi plus (running 134a with factory tube/fin condenser). I'd sure like to get my high side pressures down, and KellogGes' parallel flow condenser should theoretically do that.

Lots of good info here, but sure would like to hear about a real in car test from one of KellogGes' actual customers.

WoW "high side pressures are 375psi plus" this is pretty high!

At 95 F ambient temp here in Fort Lauderdale's tropics I get normal high side pressures i.e. 175-225 max psi; or lower then 175 but I am also running front and rear condensers too.

You might need more then just a condenser change?


What is your low side psi when you are getting 375 high side psi @100F and same speed?

When was the last time you changed your a/c filter/dryer?

[Porchcar guy]

Love the discussion BUT all of us are waiting to hear a report from any Pelican on if the dang condensers work...calling all birds :=)

[scottb]

Originally Posted by Porchcar guy

Love the discussion BUT all of us are waiting to hear a report from any Pelican on if the dang condensers work...calling all birds :=)

I posed that question awhile back, and got no responses. Anyone?

Bueller? Bueller? Bueller?

[kuehl]

Originally Posted by Joeaksa

Are the motors available for a change? We tried to buy several and after calling twice were told "none available until further notice" and we do not need them in December!

YES. And our host has them here:

Pelican Parts - Product Information: 911-624-899-00-M207

[wwest]

Originally Posted by kuehl

West

Apples and oranges. Your off topic.

Your post attempted to address whether there was an increase in air flow if things were or were not in front of the RH side air intake.

The post you are addressing discusses the differences between the 2 versions of the OEM blower top and the Kuehl blower motor asked by "llangston1".

However, going back to your topic, we'd be interested in seeing what you mean in terms of the nomenclature you have noted with respect to the numbers "10.7/8.6/8.5/10.8" do you mean MPH, km/hr, knots, m/sec, fpm, Beaaort force or an estimated cfm?

And, to answer your question, "yes" we ran tests on the theory of articles blocking the RH side air inlet some time ago... 'minimal' affect.

Griff

"..do you mean..."

It matters not, the relative ratio is the point.

"...minimal affect..."

According to the numbers, readings, I got that's just not possible. Bench test in "free"air flow cannot equate to the level of restriction in actual use.

[69BahamaYellow]

In response to KellogGes' reply,

Drier is new, expansion valve is new also. I evacuated and recharged my system earlier this year, thinking I had a restriction; replaced the drier and TXV at that time (they're cheap). No restrictions elsewhere and overall system performance after recharge is the same as before (meaning I can maintain a 70deg cabin on a 100+deg day). Low side is around 30, when high side hits 375 (which still sounds like a restriction. When it's cooler outside (say 90deg in the morning), high side pressure is 225-250 and if I hit either the front or rear condenser with spray from a water hose, high side pressure drops quite a bit, which leads me back to my assumption that your fancy new condenser can pull a lot more heat out of my refrigerant than the old style tube/fin I'm running, and hence drop my compressor head pressure. I should also note my compressor is a rotary vane style, which I believe produce more pressure than swash plate's or scroll's

[KelogGes]

Originally Posted by 69BahamaYellow

In response to KellogGes' reply,

Drier is new, expansion valve is new also. I evacuated and recharged my system earlier this year, thinking I had a restriction; replaced the drier and TXV at that time (they're cheap). No restrictions elsewhere and overall system performance after recharge is the same as before (meaning I can maintain a 70deg cabin on a 100+deg day). Low side is around 30, when high side hits 375 (which still sounds like a restriction. When it's cooler outside (say 90deg in the morning), high side pressure is 225-250 and if I hit either the front or rear condenser with spray from a water hose, high side pressure drops quite a bit, which leads me back to my assumption that your fancy new condenser can pull a lot more heat out of my refrigerant than the old style tube/fin I'm running, and hence drop my compressor head pressure. I should also note my compressor is a rotary vane style, which I believe produce more pressure than swash plate's or scroll's

You have now given very good information to try to make a diagnosis I think
And attempted to eliminate potential problems because your high side was so high

I guess because you only have a rear condenser that is not very efficient it could/might explain this
Still I am surprise your high side is 375F ouch ; but if your rear condenser is a very old Behr OEM, and if this is the case
They were not sealed to the deck lid hole air intake, taking good use of the engine fan, and this permitted incoming air
to not only go through the condenser poorly
But also around the condenser before the air hit the condenser and proceed around (not through) the condenser into
the engine fan shroud intake which creates a loss in condenser efficiency; furthermore you do not have a front condenser
that most/ later i.e. 1974-1989 year 911’s with separate front fan.

FYI when I replaced my OEM front and rear condensers to PFCs there was a huge drop in my high side pressure;
Along with colder air temps

Let me know when you want the PFC’s

[69BahamaYellow]

I have a front condenser, which is also original Behr tube/fin, as well as the Behr rear condenser. I sealed my engine deck lid to make sure the engine fan only sucks air through the rear condenser. Front condenser has no fan and is mounted in the front wheelwell (where the factory oil cooler usually goes). I get plenty of air flow over both condensers (when driving); not so much at a standstill, but the cabin still stays cool at redlights.

To be fair, the 375 psi high side pressure was read @ 3100 Engine RPM (about 2700 compressor RPM. on a 100+ deg F day. It is lower at idle RPM, but I can't remember by how much.... I have a high/low pressure cutout switch in my high side line that will cut out above 385psi or below 40psi. So far, it has never cutout on high side pressure. If you look at a 134a charging table, my high side pressure is on the high side of the normal range for the given ambient temp, so it's not grossly out of whack, but