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Join Date: Oct 2009
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Porsche Crest Project 69

Bryan’s 1969T Bastard Hot Rod (BHR) Project.

After 1 ½ years of near constant toil on my shop, the reason for building it in the first place finally arrived. The car came into my possession in April and finally made it home Memorial Day weekend after sitting for a couple of years outside of Bernie Buschens shop in Fall City. The car has tank support issues, a condition unknown 2.0 mated to a 4 speed with late model seats but Overall the car seems ‘solid’ and more importantly it is my first 911 and will be perfect for me to get know and appreciate over the course of the build.


The cars previous owner had intended to Hot Rod it and it is my intention to continue that dream and put it back on the road for street and track abuse. My vision of what the car will be in the end is somewhat hazy. I love the early Rally and endurance 911’s from the 60’s and 70’s but I am also fascinated by the detail and beauty of cars such as Jury’s R / Outlaw and cnielsens ’67 T/R. That is a far away dream at this point and my priority is to fix my structural issues, find an interim motor/tranny until I can build up my 2.7 and get the car safe enough to drive. This all by spring? A lot of friends have smiled and shook their heads but ‘can’t never did anything’.

Day 0 || Deconstruction
8July11
This past weekend, I dove right in and was able to pop the tank out, clear the tank bay and start stripping the undercoating and paint from the tank supports. With some help from my friend Trace and my girlfriend we were able to also remove the fenders and the hood.










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bryan
1969 911T , '04 S2000, '96 900SS, 4x4 urban assault vehicle
R Gruppe #653

Last edited by combatic; 07-12-2011 at 12:58 AM..
Old 07-12-2011, 12:09 AM
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great colour, will it stay blue?
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Old 07-12-2011, 12:32 AM
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Day 2 || Grinding
9July2011
Now to see what I have really gotten myself into. I was optimistic when I first popped the tank out. “a patch welded here and there and we will be good”…but my pessimistic side knew better. Two questions for the collective. 1) How bad is she ‘doc’? and 2) who’s tank support sheet metal should I go with and more importantly why? I am starting to collect threads on ‘how to’ replace this sheet metal and I am inclined to build a jig to locate the new pan and A arm mount points…if I need to go there. Pointers or thread links welcome




Starboard side is not too bad


Port side tank support under the battery box is bad and looks like it was patched at one time


The rust has gotten into the upper unibody so it will have to be fab’d up.




Tech Tip- Want to make less dust and smoke from grinding? I have been finding new uses for my oscillating tool. The latest is to remove undercoating with a stripping blade. As long as the blade is sharp it cuts through the undercoating with ease and produces minimal dust. The blade also gets into the cracks and vibes out the scale and junk at the seams. Don’t forget to grind a new sharp edge as it dulls. Now you can produce less particulate with your grinding wheel and get right down to the metal quickly.
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bryan
1969 911T , '04 S2000, '96 900SS, 4x4 urban assault vehicle
R Gruppe #653
Old 07-12-2011, 12:51 AM
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oh snap, The short answer is yes, she will stay Pastel Blue. I have always liked that color and you don't see many of them on the road. My girlfriend immediately liked it so I think that seals the deal....for now.
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bryan
1969 911T , '04 S2000, '96 900SS, 4x4 urban assault vehicle
R Gruppe #653
Old 07-12-2011, 12:55 AM
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Once you start cutting and welding no big deal, love the color.

Order the kit from RD if you dont have it already so you can see what parts are included and what areas will need to be fabbed. Since you are going hot rod no worries about having it concourse, just need the front a-arm mounts to line up and not bind. She will be be a beauty.

Have you considered doing away with the battery boxes? more room for oil coolers and to cut and weld in there.
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Erik L.
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84 lime green back date (LWB 911R with RS rear flares) hot rod - absolute riot to drive!
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Old 07-12-2011, 04:34 AM
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It begins...very cool Bryan!

You probably saw this, right? Another suspension pan replacement post

Looks like this will be your car's 2nd replacement pan. I wonder when the first was.
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Old 07-12-2011, 05:33 AM
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Oh boy, that's going to be fun! Great project. I'll be looking forward to watching it unfold.

So you're not planning on taking the suspension apart? If you're planning on going the 'hot rod' route I would think a full bushing replacement, or at least inspection would be in order. The rubber is likely to be junk, and with that much rust outside you'll want to have a look at your torsion bars too. Shocks may be long dead, the brakes may be frozen, etc.. What else do you know about the condition of the car?

In part I ask because getting the suspension off would let you fab up a frame/template that bolts into the front crossbar suspension mounts as well as the front A-arm mounts so that you have a guide to keep things square and aligned during the pan replacement (something short of a full frame rig).

Good luck and keep us Pelicans posted.

Mike
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Michael Caterino
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Old 07-12-2011, 05:54 AM
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This might be Bryan's first Porsche, but he is not "new" to Porsche's or early cars. He has worked on early cars before and has a great support network here in Seattle, so we know this project will be done right.

Great news that you are finally able to start work on the car Bryan. Good luck!
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Old 07-12-2011, 06:11 AM
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Good luck, Bryan, we are all rooting for you.

When Alex and I did his front pan, we actually used the a-arms to help locate it. We put the car up on jack stands at all four corners (using the aft crossmember on the front) so it absolutely would not move. We then measured the height from the ground to the bottom of the a-arms right behind where they mount to the pan, and distance from the centerline of the car. Just make sure you mark that centerline on something you won't be cutting off. When we tacked the new pan in, it was a simple matter to bolt it to the a-arms and re-create the position of those a-arms by clamping the pan in various places to the remaining structure.

Just a note on that "remaining structure": much of it will be rusted as well, like the inner wheel wells. The front pan kits don't have the pieces in them that are required to repair these areas. We wound up having to cut a good couple of inches out past the replacement pan and tank support pieces in several areas just to find "good" metal on the tub. Just drilling out the spot welds to remove the pan and tank supports won't eradicate all of the rot. It will go up higher than that. We wound up making a lot of filler strips, but that's pretty easy, once the pan is in place.
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Old 07-12-2011, 07:22 AM
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Go Brian!

That pan has been replaced before. Probably why the center section is in decent shape and the outside lateral tank supports are not. You have some custom fab work ahead of you.

There are a few options. Restoration design makes (used to make?) the lateral tank supports for the inner chassis area. This does not help the outside lower fender well under the battery boxes. here you have a few options.

The passenger side lower fender well section is the same as a later car under the battery box. you can find a cut from a later car and graft it in. This is generally easier than fabricating your own.

The DS lower section is different on a later car due to the angular protusion for the battery under the front bumper mount. you can cut and graft this in place. Otherwise you need to fab up a section. The lower "bulbous" contour section that matches the front pan is symmetrical on the L and R side of the car. You can use a passenger side section to complete this. A metal shrinker/stretcher will be your friend for fabricating these lower sections. Yes, been there, done that.

YOu might want to consider dropping the battery boxes depending on your engine choice. This will allow for increased room and airflow for oil coolers.

Lots of potential in this car. Can't wait to follow the progress.
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71 911T SWT - Sun and Fun Mobile
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Old 07-12-2011, 07:55 AM
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Nice progress.
I would suggest using pelican's photo hosting so this thread will remain intact in case your google (picasa?) account ever goes down. There are a few epic pelican threads that are now useless because the leeched images are now gone (Carrera to China, for example).
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Old 07-12-2011, 08:28 AM
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Jig links

Quote:
Originally Posted by combatic View Post
I am starting to collect threads on ‘how to’ replace this sheet metal and I am inclined to build a jig to locate the new pan and A arm mount points…if I need to go there. Pointers or thread links welcome
Here are a few links I've come across while researching how to build a DIY Celette-esque jig. Flank built a very beefy Celette-esque jig a few years back for locating mount points. It's likely overkill (I think he quoted the weight at something like 2000 lbs ), but is a good start point to construct your own jig.

Flank's 71 Targa restro - Home made chasis jig - pictures

and some useful information on some of the fixtures appeared in a 'used parts for sale' post, of all things :
WTB: Celette fixtures for 911

Lastly, just doing a google image search on 'Celette' turned up a number of photos of Celettes and jigs, as well as a number of women who apparently are named 'Celette'. The photos of the jigs gave me some ideas on how to make simplified versions of them for my '68.
celette - Google Search

If you do end up building a jig, please post up what you've done for the benefit of those, like me, trying to figure out how to make something that works. Look forward to watching you build this car out.
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Last edited by Rotmilky; 07-12-2011 at 10:33 AM..
Old 07-12-2011, 10:25 AM
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Looking Good!

Click my signature... I've been dong the same thing on a 69 for two years now
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Old 07-12-2011, 03:29 PM
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These are the shiznit, too:

Scotch-Brite™ Clean and Strip XT Disc TN Quick Change.

They come in multiple sizes @ 4.5" and 7" diameter. Nielsen used these on the '67. The combo of your "manbrator" and these will work well, since the discs are kind of expensive. I think HF has knock offs, but haven't tried them yet.
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Old 07-12-2011, 03:57 PM
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Good luck.
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Old 07-12-2011, 05:59 PM
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Elombard, Rich, Jeff, jpnovak, rotmilky, et al. Thanks for the links, advice and words of encouragement! I am soaking up all I can right now and sifting through the various threads. I was able to talk with some of the locals tonight and the general consensus is that it is very doable albeit a nasty job.

My big takeaways were the following-
a) CENTER-LINE: establish an accurate center-line and datum points that I can use for reference (known measurements to the A arm mount bolts once the pans are removed. A jig can be made of almost anything to relocate the new main pan.
b) HEIGHT FROM GROUND TO MOUNTS: establish accurate and repeatable height measurements to the known A arm bolt points
c) PANS/SUPPORTS REMOVAL: you can cut out almost all the parts including the front bulkhead. Once your datum points and center-line are established you can remove all the offensive pieces. ( this scares me Chris I think I would scab in lateral bars in the battery box area to get the hood to fit again?)
d) GET THE CAR UP HIGH ENOUGH TO WORK!: the car needs to be up high enough that I (as an amateur welder) can see what I am doing and comfortably weld.
e) CHASSIS MUST NOT MOVE: before the process begins stabilize the chassis (via jack stands etc) so that it can not move until the welding process is over.
f) WHICH SHEET METAL TO USE?: RD panels seem to be the sheet metal of choice and they have a package deal which is very attractive.
g) CASTER!: caster is very important to the performance of the suspension travel (alignment terminology resource)
h) ALIGNMENT: alignment of the A arms needs to be symmetric and aligned to the established centerline of the car.


These are probably givens for some of you all but I write this for my own documentation for later and other that might stumble onto this thread and need some pointers.

The things that I am unclear on are
1) how am I going to get the car up high enough to work on (very tempted to get my lift now but I don't know where that money is going to come from..heh)
2) where do I support the car while I have to do the pan removal and install and that does not interfere with the rear A arm mounts?

I have to solve these things before I immobilize the car and start in on the suspension removal. It might also make sense to remove the motor now.
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bryan
1969 911T , '04 S2000, '96 900SS, 4x4 urban assault vehicle
R Gruppe #653
Old 07-12-2011, 09:43 PM
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mcaterino, the plan is to strip all the components off the frontal area to include the suspension. What I don't know is if I will be removing the battery boxes for cooling b/c I don't know what will end up in the back.

My intention is to get the car stable and usable for now and then mod/rod, install safety equip., etc and drive the car. I know that at some point once the design direction of the car settles down I will want to make it 'shiny' so then I might go in and do a more thorough dis-assembly and finish/refurb....to include potentially higher performance cooling and such.

I will be welding in RS strut braces and tower braces soon =) Anybody have some for sale?
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1969 911T , '04 S2000, '96 900SS, 4x4 urban assault vehicle
R Gruppe #653

Last edited by combatic; 07-12-2011 at 09:54 PM.. Reason: i mis speelt
Old 07-12-2011, 09:51 PM
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Fishcop, nice project and I like your home built 'rotisserie'! Great car and worth the effort! It will be interesting to follow your resto/build!

Erik, I ran across pix of your RSR tonight and noticed your handle. I remember when it was for sale and considered trying to get some financing together...but it never happened. Love that car! ha ha. That was a while back when I was doing a lot of window shopping. Didn't realize it was yours.
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1969 911T , '04 S2000, '96 900SS, 4x4 urban assault vehicle
R Gruppe #653
Old 07-12-2011, 10:00 PM
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Bryan, The pan is relatively simple to align. The facttory spec is actually forgiving in terms of placement.

A few key measurements before cutting it out.

1. The longitudinal distance between the front a-arm pick-up and the rear cross member pick-up. This will let you know that the suspension will bolt up properly. There is a reason the front a-arm bushing brackets are slotted as much as they are.

t2. The diagonal measurements from L rear to R front. This will tell you if the pan is square.

If you can get these to right the suspension will have no issues.

BTW cut just the pan out and leave the nose section and as much of the lower seams as possible. These will locate the pan for welding. Once the pan is fit and square and tacked in place you can start cutting the lateral areas that need replacement. If you cut too much out at one time you will have no reference for installation and this will make things much more difficult.
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Old 07-13-2011, 04:23 AM
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I love the color. How come 2 batteries? never seen that before.
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Old 07-13-2011, 05:40 AM
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