Did I just Grenade my Engine?

[A&F]

Originally Posted by DRACO A5OG

That Mobil 1, was it synthetic or conventional.

Yes, ZDDP in the Valvoline VR1 is very good for our babies. I have not used it but I also read the Kendal Titanium has alot of Zink as well.

I'm going to assuming Dino. It was $2 a pint (~$4 a quart).

[DRACO A5OG]

Hmmm, not for nothing but maybe a drain and refill with Valvoline or Kendal is in order???

about 5 years ago I had another oil in her and noticed out of the blue one day my tensioner was making noises aka Metal Trash Can Noise, flushed it out and put in the VR1, noise stopped.

Someone posted they swapped to Kendal and engine became allot quieter as well.

[DRACO A5OG]

Originally Posted by A&F

No it did not. That sounds like engine knock too me.

Yeah, kinda hard to tell but was yours like a rattle in a metal trash can?

[A&F]

Originally Posted by Rob 930

A&F,

Good luck and please report back on what you found.

Rob

Rob, thank you very much for the detailed and positive post. It actually had me really motivated to get out and look at the car. I was even thinking, "heck, this should be easy. blown top end is not that bad".

The oil leaks I had mentioned in my original post.


Pulled the oil filter.


I then pulled two spark plugs before I lost all motivation and kicked the tool box across the garage.

So I then talk to my buddy (who's built 20+ engines now) and he feels since the car was running great last week that maybe a rod cap came off. His big concern is the condition of the crank. If it's nicked I'll need a new one.

So I look at our hosts catalog... and laugh hysterically.
Pelican Parts - Product Information: 930-102-014-09-OEM

$8,000.

A brand new, Subaru STI forged crank from Subaru is $400.

I can't help but think I could have a machine shop make a crank out of billet from scratch for less. I see on eBay there are two cranks used for $2,600. Patrick Motorsport has them listed as $2,200 used.



So this is what I see happening.

Step 1: Pull engine and inspect crank.

If in spec - rebuild engine.

If out of spec - Two options.

Option 1: Swap in Liquid Cooled engine and delete Pelican Forum account. It would likely be a EZ30R (Subaru flat six) or a K24-Turbo (Honda 4). I believe adaptor plates exist for both because of the buggy world. This would destroy whatever value my car has left and much of the reason I loved in the first place. (old school air cooled awesomeness).

Option 2: Part out the whole car and sell it. I simply can't justify wasting $10k rebuilding this stupid engine.

[cgarr]

Whats in the oil? can you tell? alum etc? Normally if you get chains slapping around they will hit the chain case and take some aluminum out of them. These motors are pretty bullet proof, but tensioners do fail and make a hell of a noise.

[CountD]

Take a breather. It does stink. Good thing it didn't happen somewhere on the highway. I always say the keepers, when they do break down, break down in your driveway.

1) Don't do Option 1 - that's the redneck way out.
2) Don't do Option 2 - that's the weak way out - and your emotions talking.


At this point you don't even know the source of the flakes - could be bottom end, maybe it isn't. Take a couple days, and fight for your car.

[A&F]

Originally Posted by cgarr

Whats in the oil? can you tell? alum etc? Normally if you get chains slapping around they will hit the chain case and take some aluminum out of them. These motors are pretty bullet proof, but tensioners do fail and make a hell of a noise.

Gold. I think it's brass. I left it in the oil pan as it is. Filter is in a bag.

[cgarr]

Originally Posted by A&F

Gold. I think it's brass. I left it in the oil pan as it is. Filter is in a bag.

Well you got, rocker bushings, chain idler sprockets, dizzy drive gear, rod wrist pin bushings, what am I missing?

How was the oil pressure?

[Trackrash]

No reason to panic until you inspect the rocker arms and chain tensioners.

[RedCoupe]

A&F, my advice FWIW, is sell the car, as is where is. Take your losses and move on to a car that moves your meter. You've grown to truly hate this car, and every dollar that you spend to repair it is going to piss you off. An engine swap is a huge money pit (trust me - swaps NEVER go exactly according to plan or stay within budget) and you wind up with a much less valuable car, as you already know. There is a strong market for 3.2 Carreras, you will find somebody with stars in his eyes who will tow this car home to his garage, and have the time of his life taking it apart and fixing it. Cut your losses and move on.

[Lapkritis]

I'm going to go out on a limb with my internet diagnosis on this one. I bet a rocker shaft walked in the cam housing and seized the rocker. This chewed up the brass bushing (bits in the oil) and explains the odd performance before the event. If the cam lobe survided then you're looking at under $300 for rocker, rocker shaft and oil to fix over a couple hours of labor. All isn't lost.

[tharbert]

RedCoupe may have a point. You'll have to do little soul searching. I have my tub on a rotisserie and the engine to bits. The only thing that keeps me going is the couple years that I drove it before I decided to restomod it. If your fires aren't stoked to get it fixed, cash out and move on. Porsches are not for sissies...well at least not air cooled Porsches.

[whiz05403]

Ill take it off your hands for $4K.

[A&F]

Originally Posted by whiz05403

Ill take it off your hands for $4K.

Complete engine or just the long block?

[jwasbury]

Originally Posted by A&F

Complete engine or just the long block?

^I am sure he's talking about the whole car...Vultures are circling already
Sorry about the engine...this does suck, but you sound like a guy who has tools and isn't afraid to use them. If you sell the car broken, you're going to lose money.

If you rebuild the engine properly, you may spend what seems like a stupid amount of money, but if you're in it for the long haul its the smartest move from a $ perspective. Furthermore, if you can do it yourself, it may not be that bad and you will learn a ton. Clear your head, get the "How to rebuild and modify your Porsche 911 engine" book and get her back on the road.

EDIT: even if there is damage to the crank, all is not lost. There are guys who can repair or recondition, depending on the extent of damage.

[Rob 930]

A&F,

I'm sorry to see that metal. But I hope you won't get too discouraged.

Though it's possible that the problem started at the top end, as has been suggested, I believe it is more likely that it's a bottom end problem. Something with a rod bearing, most likely. At this point, it's probably appropriate to drain the rest of the oil and look at it. But no matter what the cause, that engine is going to have to come apart. With metal floating throughout it, everything has to be looked at and completely cleaned.

Probably the next thing I'd do is rotate the crankshaft by hand and see what it feels like - after pulling the plugs. To rule out top end issues, it would now be worth pulling all four valve covers and inspecting the rockers, camshafts, and what you can see of the valves. The "good" news about a bottom end problem is that perhaps the top end survived and just needs to be cleaned up and reassembled. The big, big issue with loose metal like that is that you need completely clean all the oil passageways, oil lines, cooler, and tank. One flake of remaining metal after repair will have you starting over again. To me, that's the worst part of a failure like this.

If the crank is hurt, it can be repaired. There are several people in the country who can do it. You won't need to buy a new crankshaft! But there's no getting around the fact that a rebuild is an expensive operation. The problem I have is that I look upon a problem like this as an opportunity (an excuse, perhaps) to do everything I can to restore the engine or perhaps seek performance gains. That's what is *really* expensive. Lack of self control at times like this is what costs the big bucks. I suffer from a very serious case of "while-we're-in-there-itis" which is a common affliction amongst car enthusiasts.

If your goal was simply to "fix" the problem and put it back as is, by "yourself," the cost to do so would probably be in the 3 to 5 thousand dollar range, assuming there was no huge damage to the engine case. It will likely involve a crank repair, rod reconditioning and/or replacement of a rod (with used parts), bearings, gaskets, rod bolts, ultrasonic cleaning of oil system components, and miscellaneous hardware, including a possible used oil pump. Maybe there's a piston and cylinder that got hurt too, but you could source a used one and be back in business. What gets expensive is if you replace all the pistons and cylinders, do the heads with larger valves and porting, add Carillo rods, lighten the flywheel, change cams, new high performance clutch, case machining, different exhaust, intake, and other mods. The cost could go up by a factor of 10!

Probably the best thing to do is to perform a bit more diagnosis, as discussed in my previous post, to see if you can better understand what got hurt and what didn't. Then think about it for a little while and don't rush into a solution. It may be that you would rather buy a running engine and sell yours (it's still worth quite a bit as is). Maybe it makes more sense to sell the car as is.

But I hope you'll fix it -- which is very satisfying and fun, but admittedly not cheap. Afterward, you'll have even more respect for how interesting and well thought-out these engines are. Every time you turn that key on, you'll have a great appreciation for what's going on inside, and from then on, you'll be able to maintain your car yourself. There will be no mysteries. But taking that step, if you haven't done it before, is a big one. Get Wayne's book on 911 engines. Read it twice. Connect with local people who have done this before. The Pelican network is amazing. Get their help. Borrow their special tools. As I said, consider it an opportunity. I rebuilt my first 911 engine, from a 1966 model, in 1975. It changed my life -- in the best possible way!

Rob

[boogie_man]

Don't you dare give that car up, you'll regret it. Even if you park it and save up to fix it, you will be very happy in the long run. If it's the minor side of repairs, I noticed anytime I've changed a part in these cars, you'll never change it again as they last that long. Take your time finding the culprit and good luck.

[RedCoupe]

Don't you dare give that car up, you'll regret it.

Disagree. As much as you and I love our Porsches and would never consider selling them, they aren't for everyone. Engines are complex, parts are expensive, and access for many repairs and maintenance procedures is difficult. If you have the passion, that is all irrelevant, but if you don't, owning an old air-cooled P can be a huge frustration. When I read OP's posts, I don't see someone who has the 911 disease. I see someone who is frustrated, angry, and wants it to all go away!

[SiberianDVM]

They don't get much better than a 3.2 Carrera coupe.

If you can afford it, pay a professional to rebuild your engine. If you can't afford that, and you have massive amounts of spare time, rebuild it yourself.

If neither applies, then sell it as is, but please don't part it out.

[A&F]

coworkers