Engine "Drop" Idea

[OsoMoore]

I am preparing for my first engine+transmission removal, and had a thought.

Is it possible to do the following?
1) Modify a furniture dolly so that the engine and transmission will lie on it happily and stably.
2) Jack up the back of the car and remove the rear wheels. Disconnect all the cables, tubes, etc.
3) Lower the rear of the car until the engine lies on the dolly.
4) Remove the engine and transmission mount bolts.
5) Raise the car, leaving the engine on the dolly.

This would eliminate the need to raise and lower the engine on a dolly.
I've never done this before, so perhaps I am missing something obvious. I am reading lots of threads here and it seems there are a variety of differences in ways people remove the engine, but I haven't seen anything quite like this idea so far.

[Discseven]

Oso,

Within your plan, you need to account for the fact that engine & trans need to tilt down at cooling fan end... then be pulled to the rear a few inches in order to get the shifter linkage out and clear of the "tunnel." Then engine and trans are free from car. (In other words, engine & trans do not drop vertically from car.) Have fun!

[Jaskas]

That is how I have done it. Easy and safe.

[OsoMoore]

Originally Posted by Jaskas

That is how I have done it. Easy and safe.

Its not entirely wacky. Excellent!

Originally Posted by Discseven

Oso,

Within your plan, you need to account for the fact that engine & trans need to tilt down at cooling fan end... then be pulled to the rear a few inches in order to get the shifter linkage out and clear of the "tunnel." Then engine and trans are free from car. (In other words, engine & trans do not drop vertically from car.) Have fun!

So I will need to edge the car up and down as necessary to roll the engine back out of its linkages? Probably with a jack on either side of the car?

EDIT: Some useful links I am collecting for reference:
'78 SC Engine Drop Prep with some Pics
Drop engine with or without tranny?
85 carrera engine drop 1st timer.
Rookie Engine Drop & Reseal, G50 Carrera Cab
attempting first engine drop...couple of questions

[GT2BH]

I raised the car up, removed the wheels, disconnected everything, setup an ATV jack and a furniture dolly under the engine but not raised to maximum height, lowered the car using jack plates until the engine rested properly on the dolly, removed the mounts, raised the car up again and dragged the dolly out.

[HawgRyder]

An adjustable transmission jack is very nice.
You can change the angle of support with a screw adjust as you take the engine and trans out.
Makes install a breeze too.
Bob

[scarceller]

I raise the rear of the car just enough so that you can lower the back of the engine enough to have the muffler clear a few inches below the bumper. No need to raise the car all that high. Then place a jack at the front transmission mount and apply enough pressure so that the mount is keep snug to the car body, basically this jack won't let the front of the trany drop, it keeps that front mount from dropping.
Then I place another jack at the rear of engine, just enough pressure to hold the rear.
Now fit you're dolly between the 2 jacks.
Remove the 2 rear engine mount bolts.
Loosen or remove the front 2 mounting bolts.
Start dropping the rear jack, but do NOT lower the front one yet.
That front jack is what's keeping the engine balanced so it won't drop to the right or left by accident.
If you do it correctly you should be able to get the back of engine onto the dolly without letting the front down.
Once the back is down, slightly lower the front, separate the front mount about 1/2" from the body and pull the engine back till the shift linkage clears the tunnel hole. Then drop the front.

Now just lift the car higher and pull the motor out rearward.

The idea is to simply lift the car just high enough so you can get the engine safely down on the dolly.

[Tidybuoy]

You might also consider placing a smaller dolly under the front end of the transmission. When I recently dropped my engine, as soon as I pulled the engine back for the shifter to clear, the trans dropped hard. Fortunately, I had a dolly there and it caught the trans (otherwise it would have hit the garage cement floor).

The car has to be pretty high to clear the fan. I removed the rear bumper valance. I also had to remove the front wheels and lower the front as low as possible which angled the rear even higher. And, I had the rear pretty high to begin with.

Below is a stand that I made for my drop. It's nothing more than a 1/2 inch piece of plywood that I screwed onto a furniture dolly. Then I added 2x6 bocks to fit under the heads. I only needed the blocks because I had previously removed my heat exchangers, otherwise I would not need the blocks. I balanced the whole thing onto a floor jack and the trop was surprisingly easy. The jack did not clear the dolly but it was easy enough to lift one side of the dolly and pull the jack out. The entire drop (excluding prep work and disconnecting everything) only took about 20 minutes.

[DRACO A5OG]

That is a nifty little rig, care to share specs?

OP, invite a member that has done the engine/box drop to guide you. The first two times is nerve racking but after that you will be a pro

I personally like to remove the rear bumper so the car does not have to go so high.

Originally Posted by Tidybuoy

You might also consider placing a smaller dolly under the front end of the transmission. When I recently dropped my engine, as soon as I pulled the engine back for the shifter to clear, the trans dropped hard. Fortunately, I had a dolly there and it caught the trans (otherwise it would have hit the garage cement floor).

The car has to be pretty high to clear the fan. I removed the rear bumper valance. I also had to remove the front wheels and lower the front as low as possible which angled the rear even higher. And, I had the rear pretty high to begin with.

Below is a stand that I made for my drop. It's nothing more than a 1/2 inch piece of plywood that I screwed onto a furniture dolly. Then I added 2x6 bocks to fit under the heads. I only needed the blocks because I had previously removed my heat exchangers, otherwise I would not need the blocks. I balanced the whole thing onto a floor jack and the trop was surprisingly easy. The jack did not clear the dolly but it was easy enough to lift one side of the dolly and pull the jack out. The entire drop (excluding prep work and disconnecting everything) only took about 20 minutes.

[OsoMoore]

Thanks for the ideas and encouragement from everyone.

I have a friend who has done engine drops in the past, so I will have someone on hand for the process. I am trying to ensure I have everything I need before he comes this weekend. I plan to drain the fluids and disconnect everything before he arrives. I just need to determine exactly what I need to buy.
He says he has a floor jack he can bring.

My to-buy list:
PB Blaster
Colored Wire Ties
Furniture Dolly
24" Jack Stands

I have lots of spare 2x4s around for modifying the dolly. I believe I also have all the tools I need. I'm reading and re-reading 101 projects and many posts on this forum. I'm excited and a little nervous too.

[Tidybuoy]

[QUOTE=DRACO A5OG;8219657]That is a nifty little rig, care to share specs?/QUOTE]

This was nothing fancy. I bought the furniture dolly at Home Depot, which is the exact same one as Harbor Freight.

I had some extra 1x8 boards so I cut a piece to run across the center of the furniture dolly. This was so the floor jack would have a spot to jack from. I nailed this to the furniture dolly.

I cut the plywood to be the same length as the furniture but made it a little bit deeper. However, it could have been the exact same as the furniture dolly (which I think it 18")

On the top, I cut 4 pieces of 2x6 for the heads to rest on. I probably would have used 4x4's if I had any but the 2x6's work well too. I screwed these in place with deck screws. I measured the distance of the heads and mounted the 2x6's to be just touching the edge of the heads - this would leave me room to remove the valve covers if needed. I think this was 20" but I really don't remember. I definitely recommend nailing or screwing into place as this holds everything still while you focus on not dropping the engine on the ground.

Lastly, I put another 1x8 on top of the plywood and in the center so that the engine block has something to rest on. I did not want to rest the engine on it's heads alone as I don't know if this would do any damage. The center piece of wood is doing the bulk of the work and the 2x6's are really just balancing the engine.

IF, you are not removing the heat exchangers, you don't need the 2x6's. I removed mine earlier because I was having an o2 sensor bung welded on.

Last important point: My method does not balance the engine and transmission perfectly. I was very happy to have placed a second dolly at the front of the transmission - otherwise it would have dropped onto the cement floor pretty hard.

[OsoMoore]

In what gear do you put the car before removing? Or just leave it in neutral?

[chrismorse]

I used the following method many times with VWs, don't see why it wouldn't work with the P-wagen.

Raise car.
Undoo the usual cables and hoses.
Loosen but do not remove the trans to engine bolts.
Slide a block of ice under the engine.
pull the engine back onto the ice.
Use wife's hair dryer to melt ice.

Voila - engine out.

Installation of engine just a reverse of the above procedure.

Sorry, I seem to have misplaced all of my photos of procedure :-)

chris

[scarceller]

The important thing to make note of when dropping these motors is that they are very unstable left to right if held by only 1 jack at the center of the motor. Be aware that the engine can easily fall to the right or left as you lower it. To be on the safe side have at least 1 assistant that's responsible to keep the engine balanced while you lower it ever so slowly. This is why I try not to lower the front mount and why I leave a 2nd jack on that mount, that front mount helps keep the engine balanced till you get the back of the engine down a bit.

Don't ask how I know that these motors can fall over to one side :-(

[tirwin]

I borrowed a rig from fellow Pelican Uwanna when he helped me with my drop.

He has this nifty setup. I'll try to describe it first and then post pics. Unfortunately my engine is sitting on it so it's hard to see.

The first piece is a heavy-duty custom welded piece. Think of an upside down "U" with the cross piece resting underneath the trans. The "wings" rest just below the heat exchangers.

This U sits on top of a furniture dolly and the whole thing is picked up by an ATV jack that "cradles" it left to right (facing the back of the car).

With the bumper off you don't have to jack the car very high. Roll the ATV jack into place and position it with the crossmember of the rig right below where the transmission bell housing attaches to the engine and the heat exchangers sit on the "wings". Then remove the transmission mounting bolts and engine mounts and lower it down. Once it's on the ground the whole engine can be pushed around wherever you want it.

[McLaren-TAG]

Little thread hi-jack here since I'm looking at doing a top end, valve guides over the winter. Is using something like the hydraulic jack table below as both jack and engine stand feasible or is it crazy to consider anything other than the traditional engine stand and ATV jack?

Manual Lift Table - 660 lb. Standard, 32 x 20" H-1486 - Uline

[tirwin]

There have been a few discussions on using a lift table. IIRC, one piece of advice was to use one that is rated for double the weight of the engine. Stuff made in China being what it is these days you probably don't want to be near the rated capacity.

One thing I will say about Grant's way of doing is the ATV jack is really close to the floor so it keeps the height of the rear (again -- taking the bumper off) at a very manageable (read: "safe") height. All we needed was one pair of 6 ton jack stand placed inboard directly under the torsion tubes. No need to jack stands in the front. Very stable.

I do not understand all the fuss about taking the bumper off. Even with one stubborn bolt it didn't take long to do it. Breaking the hard oil line at the rear of the engine with the line running to the thermostat -- THAT was a pain in the rear.

[Tidybuoy]

Originally Posted by McLaren-TAG

Is using something like the hydraulic jack table below as both jack and engine stand feasible or is it crazy to consider anything other than the traditional engine stand and ATV jack?

Manual Lift Table - 660 lb. Standard, 32 x 20" H-1486 - Uline

I have one of those lifts at work and I was originally thinking of borrowing it for the engine drop. However, when I looked over the lift, I decided it was too tall, even when completely collapsed it's about 1 foot tall. My next choice was to borrow a pallet jack which sits a lot lower....and if I could fit that in the back of my car, I would have borrowed that but those things are very heavy and large and would not do well in the back of my 944. (I gotta get me a truck).

[fred cook]

When I pull the engine/tranny on my SC coupe, I use a Sears ATV jack with a 3/4" plywood piece attached. There are blocks on the plywood to allow the bottom of the engine and transmission to sit on the plywood and be stable. My process is:

Jack up the car part way
loosen everything except the tranny and engine mount bolts.
Raise the ATV jack until it is holding the drivetrain and remove the 4 bolts.
Lower the drivetrain while moving it to the rear slightly to clear the shift rod
Lower the drivetrain all the way as close to the floor as the jack will go.
Using two floor jacks, raise the body until it is high enough to remove the drivetrain.
Lower the body to a safe/stable height.

This way, I am never under the car while it is in the maximum height position.
Good luck on your project!