AC restore ... replace hoses, or not?

[tirwin]

Originally Posted by wwest

My suggestions are only "half-assed" if you disbelieve the EPA and DuPont.

Then there is the "misery loves company" group.

Having spent lots of time and/or money doing something only to subsequently to find that it was all NEEDLESS.

I am not going to get into the efficacy ofthe EPA and DuPont testing because that isn't the point. You can site all of the theoretical sources you want -- there is a difference between theory and reality. If a hose leaks in the real world then all the lab testing in the world is meaningless.

[tirwin]

Currently sitting at 16-1 and we all know who the 1 is. There's your answer!

[kuehl]

I've contacted the EPA in the past and asked them for the empirical study which supposedly concludes it is not necessary to replace non barrier hoses with barrier hoses. Their response: " gee, we have no idea", and "gee, we have no idea whom changed the text in the EPA website"

Understand that most passenger vehicles have less than 12 feet of rubber ac hose, in most cases the lines are metal. And, today, most refrigerant lines are metal for a reason, other than quick installation by a robot, .... metal does not permeate refrigerant gas as easily as rubber.

I believe this previous post sums it up:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/750353--non-barrier-hoses-do--leak.html#post7447688

[Ronnie's.930]

Originally Posted by tirwin

-- there is a difference between theory and reality.

And therein lies the root cause of Will's legendary, Porsche a/c tech disconnect!

[kuehl]

By the way, one of the major producers of refrigerant hose in the US noted there will be a major price hike this summer. They have not concluded as to much of a % the costs will go up, kinda odd considering the cost of oil is down, wages are down, lol.

[wwest]

Originally Posted by kuehl

I've contacted the EPA in the past and asked them for the empirical study which supposedly concludes it is not necessary to replace non barrier hoses with barrier hoses. Their response: " gee, we have no idea", and "gee, we have no idea whom changed the text in the EPA website"

Sure Griff, we should accept your HEARSAY, secondhand yet, vs the EPA's published document.

And some random EPA bureaucrat having no idea "who changed the text" does not even remotely indicate that it wasn't changed for good and sound reasons.

Except from your clearly biased, SELL more $$$$ A/C KITS, viewpoint.

Understand that most passenger vehicles have less than 12 feet of rubber ac hose,

Then what about all the extended length vehicles, such as the Ford Aerostar, that a rear A/C evaporator with non-barrier hoses but no record of leakage.

in most cases the lines are metal.

And your source for this enlightening info is..??

And, today, most refrigerant lines are metal for a reason, other than quick installation by a robot, .... metal does not permeate refrigerant gas as easily as rubber.

I believe this previous post sums it up:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/750353--non-barrier-hoses-do--leak.html#post7447688

And since when would the EPA allow such misinformation, if that be the case, to remain posted...

[zippy_gg]

Originally Posted by kuehl

Understand that most passenger vehicles have less than 12 feet of rubber ac hose, in most cases the lines are metal. And, today, most refrigerant lines are metal for a reason, other than quick installation by a robot, .... metal does not permeate refrigerant gas as easily as rubber.

Should this make a case for replacing "rubber" lines with metal?
As I am about to replace the old rubber, should I consider having metal lines made?

[kuehl]

Ziggy,

Yes. Of course consider metal if you are handy.

As I stated, and the auto industry has moved to, metal leaks less than non barrier hoses.

Pro's:
Less leakage.
Lighter weight (aluminum).

Con's:
More time to do the job, and more tools required.
If you don't get your braze joints correct, you got leaks
Potential for corrosion.

So, if you want to delete the source of common permeation (leakage) through old fashion non barrier hoses, you have 2 choices:
A) Barrier hoses, either buying a set, or having them made for you, and some buy their own hose crimper or borrow one.
The hose PP sells individual barrier hoses and complete sets.
B) Make your own metal lines.

Look up Jim Sim's in the various threads, he's done metal lines, and as well he has used our barrier hoses on an earlier car.

PS: just ignore willy.

[zippy_gg]

Originally Posted by kuehl

Ziggy,

Yes. Of course consider metal if you are handy.

Thanks!

Originally Posted by kuehl

PS: just ignore willy.

I usually do...

[Bob Kontak]

Originally Posted by kuehl

PS: just ignore willy.

I know what poll thread I would like to post.

Should wwest be banned permanently?

Yes or no

[uwanna]

Originally Posted by Bob Kontak

I know what poll thread I would like to post.

Should wwest be banned permanently?

Yes or no

I view Willard's addiction to AC threads kinda like a fly trying to pass up a steaming pile of horse sh#t. He can't resist landing and subsquently leaving his fly specks (sh#t) all over the place. He needs to seek out addiction rehab or better yet as Bob suggests, be assigned to it.

[azhodge]

wow, that did not take long. must be a record.

[Ronnie's.930]

Originally Posted by uwanna

I view Willard's addiction to AC threads kinda like a fly trying to pass up a steaming pile of horse sh#t.

[zippy_gg]

but...but...but... what about that trinary switch???

[NathanR]

I'm about to venture down this path and have decided to try the DIY route.

I bought a hose crimper from amazon, and will try it out once I get back from vacation in a couple weeks. Check out a pic at:

New flux capacitor, aka AC hose crimper

So far I've only planned out materials to replace hoses from the compressor to the R/D, as a "phase 1".

More to follow.

Cheers
Nathan

[GH85Carrera]

Originally Posted by tirwin

Jeff,

If you are going to run R-134a and you have stock hoses, you should replace with barrier hose. If you choose to buy the replacement hose from Griffiths it should come with a pressure switch installed, which the factory setup did not have.

You will read all kinds of lunacy here, but it's just that simple.

Before you do that though, I would check out the rest of your system. A month is pretty quick to lose refrigerant. You could very well have a leak somewhere else that needs to be addressed too. Maybe you could take it someplace that has a leak detection capability.

At a minimum you need to replace the receiver/drier at the same time you do the R-134a conversion.

While you are in there you need to check out the squirrel cage blower fan in the nose for the front condenser. That is a potential fire hazard. In the late 80's -- not sure what year the change started -- Porsche added an inline fuse. If your car doesn't have one, then add one yourself. It is cheap insurance. Lots of car fires have started because of that little fan.

It is also a good idea to test the fan. Be very careful with the clips that hold the plastic housing together when you go to remove it. The plastic tends to get very brittle with age. If the motor needs to be replaced (a good proactive measure), you have two choices. There is a teeny Allen head set screw that holds the squirrel cage fan onto the shaft. That little sucker is hard to get off. I broke off the tip of an Allen head in there. Hit it with Kroil or PB blaster before attempting to get it off. If you bugger it up like I did, Griffiths (Keuhl) is the only place I know of that sells both the fan and the motor together. And the way the new fan attaches is MUCH better. The original squirrel cage fan is NLA, so just be aware of that. If you can get the old fan separated you can just buy a replacement motor from Pelican. If you can't, call Griffiths and buy the complete unit.

Also, pull your evaporator and clean it thoroughly. I think in discseven's thread there is a good discussion on cleaning/flushing the evaporator.

Giving Charlie Griffith a call won't cost you anything either...

Read this post again. It is your best advise. It pretty much covers everything you need to do. If you want to use you 911 in HOT conditions get the full Griffith's upgrade. If you stay in moderate conditions the factory setup with a new receiver and evaporator may well be enough. My old evaporator was shot and really needed replacement. For sure clean up the evaporator box at a minimum.

[stormcrow]

I replaced the liquid line on my P-car with copper tubing - never have to worry about it ever leaking again. Hadn't done the suction line yet because it hasn't leaked but when it does it will be replaced with insulated copper tubing

[DaveMcKenz]

Originally Posted by stormcrow

I replaced the liquid line on my P-car with copper tubing - never have to worry about it ever leaking again. Hadn't done the suction line yet because it hasn't leaked but when it does it will be replaced with insulated copper tubing

I love it. Is there any fatigue problem with copper lines? I know for fuel they are not considered good. It sounds like you have solve a huge 911 problem.
Dave

[ManniB]

Originally Posted by tirwin

and we all know who the 1 is.

Wrong!

- Manfred