Post your ITB Setup

[BCLi]

Originally Posted by Rodsrsr

Al is one of the good guys. He once sent me a part I needed (on his dime) without even charging me shipping. He's as stand up as they come. No reason to bring this dispute onto a public forum IMO.

Agree.
No one can plan for all eventualities, as much as we all wish we could. I hope both parties will be able to rectify this off line rather in a forum setting.

[Classic 911]

Hi all.

I have a tuning question I hope someone can answer, perhaps Al would be so kind to give me some tips?

I have a 3.2 short stroke with RSR cams and 46mm PMO ITB’s that idles quite low when cold, around 700rpm’s.

It idles nice around 950-980rpm’s when warm.

I would like to get the cold idle up to the same as when warm.

Thanks in advance for all help.

Cheers


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[winders]

Does your setup have a head temp sensor?

[Classic 911]

Originally Posted by winders

Does your setup have a head temp sensor?

Yes it does.


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[jpnovak]

The issue with cold start is more air flow. your RSR cams with narrow lobe centers and high overlap exasperate the inefficient combustion issues that cause low airflow. You can enrich the mixture on cold start - but this just keeps it running. It does not increase the idle speed. You can increase the ignition advance (to a point) and this will add some rpm but not enough to get you to a high enough rpm.

Low rpm cold start needs more airflow. This is done by your right foot, hand throttle or some external idle valve.

There are different ways to accomplish the last two on the list above.

[winders]

Originally Posted by Classic 911

Yes it does.

This post might be helpful:

https://rennlist.com/forums/993-forum/656830-9m-motec-m84-upgrade-on-non-varioram-3.html#post8911155

[sbrown.nw]

I never said Al is anything but one of the good guys. In fact, after learning many things about this upgrade, I'm considering this issue closed with Al even though I have things to address as I did not receive one of his stellar tunes (not my words, but instead the words from my lead dyno tech) and I have a fuse box lead rewire and paint fix to address after a quick fuse box repair was done. Additionally, I hope Al offers a friendly nod if we ever cross paths in the future as I know I will extend one to him. I did learn a lot from this upgrade and I wish there were more 3.2 before and after dyno posts to base their upgrade decisions on when I was making decisions over this upgrade. I was due for notable maintenance on my factory 3.2 system for the soft fuel lines and related, which is not cheap and which was the motivating factor on going with Al's Option 2 kit. After discussion and research, we both agreed would be a notable upgrade to an older system. We did not get the 15% upgrade numbers we hypothesized (no guarantees footnote here). I also learned while he refused to do any additional work on my car, an owner does not have much options around that decision except for contesting original billing charges or legal action, neither of which I plan on doing.

Scott

Originally Posted by Rodsrsr

Al is one of the good guys. He once sent me a part I needed (on his dime) without even charging me shipping. He's as stand up as they come. No reason to bring this dispute onto a public forum IMO.

[Raceboy]

Originally Posted by jpnovak

The issue with cold start is more air flow. your RSR cams with narrow lobe centers and high overlap exasperate the inefficient combustion issues that cause low airflow. You can enrich the mixture on cold start - but this just keeps it running. It does not increase the idle speed. You can increase the ignition advance (to a point) and this will add some rpm but not enough to get you to a high enough rpm.

Low rpm cold start needs more airflow. This is done by your right foot, hand throttle or some external idle valve.

There are different ways to accomplish the last two on the list above.

One of the reasons I went for electronically operated throttle with ITB's: no need for external idle valve which would be a must if wanting to retain nice behaviour in all conditions (cold starts, high beams, fan, A/C etc).

[stanglife]

Originally Posted by Raceboy

One of the reasons I went for electronically operated throttle with ITB's: no need for external idle valve which would be a must if wanting to retain nice behaviour in all conditions (cold starts, high beams, fan, A/C etc).

How are you doing this? Do you have a DBW motor running all of the TB linkage? I considered this but also was looking at a single DBW throttle body.

[pkabush]

I also learned while he refused to do any additional work on my car, an owner does not have much options around that decision except for contesting original billing charges or legal action, neither of which I plan on doing.

Scott[/QUOTE]

So, instead you decide to try and soil his reputation by posting here.
Wow! As a small business owner I’ve had similar customers. Nightmare.
Unrealistic expectations going into the project and finding unrelated problems that seem to have nothing to do with the work done.
Over the almost three decades I’ve been in business, I’ve only had a few problem clients. Looking back, I would have been so much better off cutting ties.
Some people will never be satisfied and it’s a fool’s errand to try.
I think Al made the right decision to say enough is enough.
As pointed out in a earlier post, EFI/ITB by itself will not provide huge power gains. It will provide a safe and reliable motor should one want to add power
through internal power mods.

[pampadori]

How does 179whp for a 3.2 with Steve W chip and SSI etc compare to what others typically see? That seems quite low to me.

Looking at this dynojet graph, you're down about 27whp.
(blue line= w/ SW chip and euro premuffler. Red line= stock chip with euro premuffler)

[Raceboy]

Originally Posted by stanglife

How are you doing this? Do you have a DBW motor running all of the TB linkage? I considered this but also was looking at a single DBW throttle body.

I use BMW S54B32 throttle motor (it has electronically actuated ITB's from factory) and E46 throttle pedal, VEMS ECU controls it all.

[Raceboy]

Originally Posted by pkabush

As pointed out in a earlier post, EFI/ITB by itself will not provide huge power gains. It will provide a safe and reliable motor should one want to add power
through internal power mods.

EFI actually does provide more power and torque as it allows to fine tune each load cell and get the most out of the engine.
Not to mention consistency, streetability etc.

[chrisbalich]

This is my ITB setup as of last night. (and this morning)
25 mpg on flat, midwestern freeway, 17-21 bombing through the mountains.
Ran great even as dirty as it was after all those gravel miles...on a 3/4 ass VE map.

Gotta love ITBs and EFI.

[sbrown.nw]

I talked to Steve before doing the ITB upgrade. He said my much earlier and flatter torque (notably higher than the graph below and something I really like) plus a limited higher end for numbers is the SSI signature. The caption for this dyno graph just said headers (not SSIs specifically) and going by what Steve said I would be they are not SSIs.

Scott

Originally Posted by pampadori

How does 179whp for a 3.2 with Steve W chip and SSI etc compare to what others typically see? That seems quite low to me.

Looking at this dynojet graph, you're down about 27whp.
(blue line= w/ SW chip and euro premuffler. Red line= stock chip with euro premuffler)

[faapgar]

So after $4500-7500 was it worth it for 35-45 hp?Now you have a car that most shops can not tune.Where is the value with this upgrade?Ihave only done Motec since 1988.Very steady and reliable.

[Jeff Alton]

Sbrown.NW

If you are paying someone to tune EFI maps that is not using a dyno, you are wasting your money. Yes, throttle balance and idle can all be tuned with out, but if you want it to run at it's peak, put it on a proper dyno that can run load, not a dyno jet. It will actually cost the same or less at the end of the day as the time factor to get it dialed is significantly reduced, and with the current tuner, it will be DIALED.

Cheers

[Jeff Alton]

Originally Posted by faapgar

So after $4500-7500 was it worth it for 35-45 hp?Now you have a car that most shops can not tune.Where is the value with this upgrade?Ihave only done Motec since 1988.Very steady and reliable.

Fred, most performance shops doing this sort of upgrade have a dyno (we don't), have access to a dyno (we do) or have a relationship with a tuner with one who understands what the goals are (we do). Without these available resources nothing can be optimized to its full potential. But these builds are not rare or hard to solve with the right access to equipment and knowledge.

Once the tuning is complete, annual maintenance of setting the throttle balance is FAR easier than dealing Carbs or CIS and certainly MFI for ANY quality shop to perform.

One simply need to network with the correct people (if not available in house) then the maintenance/tune up side is easy.

Cheers

[al lkosmal]

Originally Posted by Classic 911

Hi all.

I have a tuning question I hope someone can answer, perhaps Al would be so kind to give me some tips?

I have a 3.2 short stroke with RSR cams and 46mm PMO ITB’s that idles quite low when cold, around 700rpm’s.

It idles nice around 950-980rpm’s when warm.

I would like to get the cold idle up to the same as when warm.

Thanks in advance for all help.

Cheers


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Greetings........jpnovak summed it up very well......EFI can be tuned to provide decent cold starting...but it is a bit of a trade-off between cold RPMs and Warm/hot RPMs.....those that do not like the cold/low rpms.....are used to the cold start mechanisms that add air......typically need to add a device to compensate....do you have an early car with the hand throttle? If not, you might consider installing an Idle Air control valve (IAC) or...I've seen mentioned the drive by wire type throttle actuator (I've not used this yet, but might have to try it soon). However...I like simple and the hand throttle is my preference for cold starts...early mechanical, blended with new EFI..........thats just me, i could be wrong....

regards,
al

[Classic 911]

Thanks a lot to both al and jpnovak for real good answers

Regards


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