What BIG 928 Lungs Look Like

Herr-Kuhn · 04:02 PM

I have a rather interesting project going together right now. Let's just call it another monster turbo 928! Some shots to whet the appetite:

928S Twin bank intercoolers, top side plumbing and plenum joining box.

Intercooler details shot...notice tank design and the way the air is directed thru the core.

Another detail shot of the intercooler.

Intercoolers are far too often undersized for their application. This pair is rated to 750-800 HP with low pressure drop (less than 10% of boost pressure). Key to performance is internal flow area. People often assume the biggest frontal area is the best, so you see what looks like a huge cooler, but then you realize it is only 3" thick and 8" tall and 30" long. Your internal flow area is then 24 square inches through a 30" long tube in that scenario. These cores measure 9+" wide X4.5" thick for a total flow area of 40+ square inches and there are two of them making up 80+ square inches of internal flow area....this is the path to the low pressure drop, "reliable as a brick" air to air intercooling system for the Porsche 928. These are mounted out of the path of condensor and radiator airflow as to not impede cooling system performance. These pieces have been very carefully designed to fit into the chassis and offer maximum performance. Not offshore crap, these are top notch cores and the finished coolers are built by skilled craftsmen to my designs. These can't be bought off the street since they are my design. Notice the attention to detail and mounting pads which are part of the units.

Intercoolers are available as per listed on my website.

rhjames · rhjames's Garage

those would be really pretty with the tanks and tubes polished to a mirror shine

some day.......

--Russ

lizard928s · 10-28-2008, 07:55 PM

John,
Can I ask, do you have someone make those for you, or do you get the cores and make them yourself?

rhjames · rhjames's Garage

Quote:

Originally Posted by Herr-Kuhn

Not offshore crap, these are top notch cores and the finished coolers are built by skilled craftsmen to my designs.

Hope this helps.

really nice pieces.......

--Russ

Herr-Kuhn · 10-29-2008, 04:53 AM

Lizard...these designs are mine but I have they are built for the business by one of the best intercooler fabricators in the country.

This set is for a customer. I am doing a custom job on his car.

JK

usfromflorida · 10-29-2008, 06:10 AM

Nice!

m21sniper · 10-29-2008, 04:13 PM

As Corky Bell pointed out in his book, you gotta be careful about going too big on ICs, as a large IC will reduce low end power/response, much as a big cam can do. Of course for that loss you get all that power back in spades higher up in the RPM range.

Herr-Kuhn · 10-30-2008, 06:00 AM

These are sized for the application. Remember, we are talking about a 5 liter V8 here with a lot of potential. What a lot of people tend to forget is that the smaller a cooler is the more restrictive it becomes. Once a cooler reaches about 5 psig pressure drop, it is essentially useless. With these coolers on my twin, I make full boost by the 3000-3,300 rpm range...perfect for a street car where you want lots of mid range and top end. I'll lean on the larger side of the intercooler core size every time. Ditto for the turbo.

Lots of factors determine boost response on a turbo car.

Herr-Kuhn · 10-30-2008, 07:18 AM

One more point guys...while I was being accused of sending my brother into the new "forum", I was actually in my workshop building this system. Contrary to popular street talk in Wisconsin I had absolutely nothing to do with anything my brother said or did in person, or on that forum. There seems to be a certain myth floating about regarding me telling my brother what to say in other forums. "Send your brother in"....that's a pathetic excuse for a certain group to attack me...they will jump at any reason to do so as we all saw this week. I'm not excusing what Mark said in any way shape or form. It was obviously wrong but it is also obvious that I had absolutely nothing to do with it.

I don't tell him what do say and I certainly don't endorce everything he puts into writing. As for me sending threatening e-mails...there is no truth to that, though there were many e-mail exchanges back and forth regarding what I saw as very optimistic dyno chart numbers from one supplier. I did not voice these concerns on any forum but rather decided to take it to the source to get an explaination. I never got a straight answer. Unlike some, I don't save every e-mail I get or receive.

I found it very funny that after I release Dynojet STD correction numbers on my twin turbo (that lb. for lb. outpowered anything else made) that a certain individual needed to go back and "recorrect" a Dynacom pull to Dynojet STD correction factors without ever even putting that car on a Dynojet machine. They found out in a big hurry that when that car went back onto a dynojet what numbers were spit out. That's what these "e-mails" were all about (suspect numbers that just didn't hold water), coupled with many discussions over some very personal attacks that started (and obviously continue today) against me 5+ years ago. I've worked incredibly hard over the last 5 years on turbo development for the Porsche 928 and I refuse to let something like this give me a bad name. There is nothing "threatening" about asking for a valid explaination on something that looks suspect. And just becasue I defend myself and my product that does not make me arrogant. Anybody else who has worked as hard as I have should be able to defend their work against unnecessary attacks. For 1000 hours of development I own the right to defend what I've accomplished. How many doubters were there 5 years ago?

When I read what all this recent fuss is about what I see is my brother making some very uncalled for comments....BUT only after someone from Wisconsin made yet another personal attack on him. I highly doubt anybody would have the guts to make such a comment to his face, nor would he act that way towards anybody else in person. While everybody was speculating that I was the one behind this effort I was on the phone with him telling him to stop contributing to the madness. Yeah Erik, he got an earfull from me.

I was tipped off about that new forum some 6 weeks ago. Erik...do you want the PM for me to prove that to you?. Why would I wait until now to "send in my brother" to stir the pot?

Maybe you missed the point about me being totally opposed to contributing there in any way shape or form? Erik, please do some reading before you accuse me of something like this in the future. You had better have your facts straight if you are going to make an accusation like that in the future.

It's clear that I've become a target for others. It's getting old being dragged down over this pety crap. Make no mistake guys...these attacks started in 2003 with a group out of Wisconsin ganging up on me (you all know the history on this). Several of those guys have not been man enough to say a word to me in person and I doubt that will ever change.

Life is pretty good now, I just got remarried to a great lady, took a new "daytime" job as a Director of Global Product Management for a emergency response medical products company, and in addition I've got some work in the high performance 928 business.

Let's let the dead dogs lie.

lizard928s · 10-30-2008, 02:50 PM

Hey John, what do these sizes of IC sell for? or what does it cost to have custom ones made?

Normy · 10-30-2008, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Herr-Kuhn

One more point guys...while I was being accused of sending my brother into the new "forum", I was actually in my workshop building this system. Contrary to popular street talk in Wisconsin I had absolutely nothing to do with anything my brother said or did in person, or on that forum. There seems to be a certain myth floating about regarding me telling my brother what to say in other forums. "Send your brother in"....that's a pathetic excuse for a certain group to attack me...they will jump at any reason to do so as we all saw this week. I'm not excusing what Mark said in any way shape or form. It was obviously wrong but it is also obvious that I had absolutely nothing to do with it.

I don't tell him what do say and I certainly don't endorce everything he puts into writing. As for me sending threatening e-mails...there is no truth to that, though there were many e-mail exchanges back and forth regarding what I saw as very optimistic dyno chart numbers from one supplier. I did not voice these concerns on any forum but rather decided to take it to the source to get an explaination. I never got a straight answer. Unlike some, I don't save every e-mail I get or receive.

I found it very funny that after I release Dynojet STD correction numbers on my twin turbo (that lb. for lb. outpowered anything else made) that a certain individual needed to go back and "recorrect" a Dynacom pull to Dynojet STD correction factors without ever even putting that car on a Dynojet machine. They found out in a big hurry that when that car went back onto a dynojet what numbers were spit out. That's what these "e-mails" were all about (suspect numbers that just didn't hold water), coupled with many discussions over some very personal attacks that started (and obviously continue today) against me 5+ years ago. I've worked incredibly hard over the last 5 years on turbo development for the Porsche 928 and I refuse to let something like this give me a bad name. There is nothing "threatening" about asking for a valid explaination on something that looks suspect. And just becasue I defend myself and my product that does not make me arrogant. Anybody else who has worked as hard as I have should be able to defend their work against unnecessary attacks. For 1000 hours of development I own the right to defend what I've accomplished. How many doubters were there 5 years ago?

When I read what all this recent fuss is about what I see is my brother making some very uncalled for comments....BUT only after someone from Wisconsin made yet another personal attack on him. I highly doubt anybody would have the guts to make such a comment to his face, nor would he act that way towards anybody else in person. While everybody was speculating that I was the one behind this effort I was on the phone with him telling him to stop contributing to the madness. Yeah Erik, he got an earfull from me.

I was tipped off about that new forum some 6 weeks ago. Erik...do you want the PM for me to prove that to you?. Why would I wait until now to "send in my brother" to stir the pot?

Maybe you missed the point about me being totally opposed to contributing there in any way shape or form? Erik, please do some reading before you accuse me of something like this in the future. You had better have your facts straight if you are going to make an accusation like that in the future.

It's clear that I've become a target for others. It's getting old being dragged down over this pety crap. Make no mistake guys...these attacks started in 2003 with a group out of Wisconsin ganging up on me (you all know the history on this). Several of those guys have not been man enough to say a word to me in person and I doubt that will ever change.

Life is pretty good now, I just got remarried to a great lady, took a new "daytime" job as a Director of Global Product Management for a emergency response medical products company, and in addition I've got some work in the high performance 928 business.

Let's let the dead dogs lie.

John-

I guess I haven't had access to all the drama that has transpired...but jesus your post seems defensive!

John, I LOVE your work. If I won the lottery tomorrow, I'd have you turbocharge my '85 S2 to about 550 hp. That is the MOST that our transmissions can handle! My old pig out in the garage is probably sticking its' tongue out right now, saying automotive swear words, and something like "You bastard! If you do that to me I'm going to leak oil all OVER your new epoxy garage floor!"

Listen. There are several ways to make 550 hp from an M28 engine. Eric Scharinger [sp? Sorry, I'm wasted~] can tell you all about Tim's kits from Wisconsin. And Sterling down in Texas can tell you that you don't need forced induction at all to achieve that level of power.

Which one is BEST?

That is a question that simply brings one back to PERSONAL PREFERENCE. I have explained on posts that I love the way that turbochargers make power. Just like the 727's that I fly for Fedex, the turbocharged engine seems to wait a moment and then come on strong. I like that. But people like Eric want predictable torque -curves. Eric races- he doesn't want to feel his car "wake up" suddenly, he wants it to communicate with him and drive like it is supposed to. He would enjoy that, I wouldn't. It makes sense for him to want a supercharger that is predictable.

Next question: What are we looking at? I'll tell you: PIXELS. John, you get WAY worked up over pixels!

If I were you, I would IGNORE what people say about you and your efforts online.

Q: Are you actually selling anything?

Come on-I'm banned at Rennlist too!

ANYONE with a brain will quickly realize that your efforts are sooo valuable and your detractors aren't even worth the time.

-ALL of this just comes from the fact that I think you get way too wrapped around the pole whenever someone attempts to engage you. You should be more friendly. Didn't you have any friends when you were in school? There's nothing at all wrong with your turbo systems. And there is nothing at all wrong with turbochargers in general.

Dude- settle down!

N!

NOW: Lets say we are at a convention. We all

Herr-Kuhn · 10-30-2008, 04:42 PM

Just setting the record straight Normy, that's all. I refuse to let a bunch of guys make up stories about me along the way, regardless of the circumstances.

Herr-Kuhn · 10-30-2008, 04:45 PM

Lizard...check the website for the prices. If the custom design isn't too much different than the ones I already have then the price would be the same. About 4 weeks on delivery give or take.

JK

Herr-Kuhn · 05:16 PM

Some more "work in progress" photos:

Turbo 928 project...single mid-mount turbo with twin fender banked intercooler system and plenum box. Airflow is split up and hammered out to each intercooler to provide adequate cooling flow area for desired HP levels. Plumbing is relatively simple and should prove very effective for desired HP levels.

Intercoolers mounted into chassis. This set is specific to 928S, the 928S4 intercoolers are just slightly larger but only by a very tiny amount on the width.

Inner fender casualty of side bank intercooler installation. A simple and very effective procedure.

Additional engine shot, plenum box and plumbing rough fitted prior to finishing.

More information as it becomes available or more like when I get more parts built over the next week or so.

Glenn M · 10-30-2008, 07:04 PM

John,
I'm with Norm, what you have done is amazing. There will always be nay sayers but you know what you have designed, integrated and tested and that is what counts.

We get very passionate over our cars but the mud slinging by all is counter productive. It just hurts our community and the folks trying to make improvements and modifications.

I have seen you car in person at SITM and it is a true work of art. Don't let other people get under your skin, you proof is under the hood and that is what counts.

I would love to get one but it isn't in the cards at this time.

Take care,
Glenn

lizard928s · 10-30-2008, 09:06 PM

John, that looks great!

Though I have to ask is that Abby's car that those are going into????

Fabio421 · 06:48 AM

Very clean. I like it.

How are you getting air to these intercoolers? Are you splitting the existing ducts since its an S or are you going to be making vents like you did on the S4?

m21sniper · 10-31-2008, 11:14 AM

They appear to be directly fed by the brake cooling ducts.

Herr, i'm pretty surprised you don't have electric fans on them with a WOT switch. My grand national intercooler was cooled with a crank pulley mounted fan that sucked directly through the IC.

Herr-Kuhn · 10-31-2008, 03:16 PM

There will be no bumper mods on this car...there is ample room for air to get to the cores through the existing ductwork. Long term additional brake ducting can be added, but this is a street car. The coolers have a shroud that can accept a duct which can truncate at the bumper. The brake ducts on the S4s are much smaller than on the S...it's really about the shape of the openings.

No need for fans...there is a lot of metal in these cores and by the time the car is making substantial heat loads, the car will be moving pretty hard.

rich · rich's Garage

Nice work! Great engineering!