All Things Aviation Related

[GH85Carrera]

Originally Posted by t6dpilot

Three key words - Pilot In Command...

Tough call sometimes, but you and your crew are the ones that make those decisions, not passengers. Glad your dad made it to terra firms safely.

Yea, he had just been promoted tp captain, and a general said to take him, and the passenger was working for the Commander in Chief. He said he though about refusing, but he knew that was not a good career move. He felt confident in his abilities, and he "stuck the landing". It ended up as a good career move.

[Brown747]

[Captain Ahab Jr]

Originally Posted by rattlsnak

Outstanding job by the crew!

Think if I was the pilot once that plane was on the tarmac I'd be running for the back seats of the plane

[herr_oberst]

Is that DC repairable or would it repairs cost more than it's worth?

[Brown747]

It has been a bad year for Trans Northern. Alaska bush flying comes with risk. https://avherald.com/h?article=4eb5a1d1&opt=0

[Brown747]

Candle, Alaska a few years ago.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nD97nKb-AbE&feature=youtu.be#dialog

[Dantilla]

Originally Posted by herr_oberst

Is that DC repairable or would it repairs cost more than it's worth?

It will definitely be back up in the air again.

Edit:
When the landing gear of a standard DC-3 is retracted, the bottom of the tires stay exposed below the engine cowlings, can roll, and even the brakes function.
This airplane is a "Super DC-3". Notice the taller vertical tail. The Super has fully-enclosed gear doors. Perhaps once the gear doors have ground away, the tires still protect the airplane's belly.

At the end of the video, looks like they just jacked up the airplane and extended the gear normally.
Definitely some repair work to do, but this airplane is far from being a total loss.

[Tobra]

Originally Posted by Seahawk

I had a Special Instrument Card, which meant I could take off in zero/zero conditions.

I did it once: Left McClellan Air Force Base in the Tule fog for NAS North Island, San Diego which was CAVU.

It is an odd sensation.

oh hell no

I won't even drive a two seater car if it is foggy like that.

I do like walking the dogs in it, the silence is oppressive.

[t6dpilot]

Originally Posted by Seahawk

What I loved about the video was the radio discipline. Weird, I know, but a real Pilot/Navigator skill is learning how to communicate on the radio.

Totally agree. I have worked on that skill forever and try to be the best for the controllers and other pilots. Being based in ORD makes you a very good radio communicator. They are some of the best, move a ton of aircraft quickly, and accomplish that expecting very concise radio communication. East Coast too... Great weight lifting for the chops.

[pmax]

[edgemar]

Question for you guys:

If you fly into icing conditions while descending to an airport and you forget to turn the auto-ignition on and the engines flame out (due to icing) is it possible to re-light them while still flying in those conditions?

[Seahawk]

Originally Posted by edgemar

Question for you guys:

If you fly into icing conditions while descending to an airport and you forget to turn the auto-ignition on and the engines flame out (due to icing) is it possible to re-light them while still flying in those conditions?

I am not a comercial pilot, so I don't know their rules or engine restart capabilities.

In military aircraft, the ones I have flown, there is no auto re-start because the engine may be damaged due to a number of issues. An auto re-start may add "fuel to the fire" so to speak, and complicate an already interesting evolution.

Manual restart.

There are also rules in the military, at least the Navy, for intentional flight into known icing conditions: The type of icing conditions they limit flight into are based on type, model series of aircraft. For instance, my trusty H-60 is has lower limits than a P-3 and subsequent Maritime Patrol Aircraft.

Also, we are directed by policy to turn on anti-icing equipment in certain regimes, which in my case included leading edge of rotor blades, engine inlets, Pitot Static System, windshields and other stuff I can't remember

Unless it was a no kidding operational requirement, I avoided flight into any known icing conditions.

[KNS]

Originally Posted by edgemar

Question for you guys:

If you fly into icing conditions while descending to an airport and you forget to turn the auto-ignition on and the engines flame out (due to icing) is it possible to re-light them while still flying in those conditions?

Something else to consider: Are you single pilot or two pilot crew - what's your workload? Your altitude above the ground? Are you maintaining altitude? You may not have the time/luxury to try and get the engine restarted.

[svandamme]

Originally Posted by edgemar

Question for you guys:

If you fly into icing conditions while descending to an airport and you forget to turn the auto-ignition on and the engines flame out (due to icing) is it possible to re-light them while still flying in those conditions?

I doubt any of that is possible for a number of reaons

1 You are already descending and that means you already gave up altitude (energy) to relight your Jet engine
To my knowledge, Jet engines don't relight in the air from an APU but from windmilling in the airflow

2 The fact that a jet engine would flame out is already extreme.
It would mean the fanblades already became so laden with ice they lost their ability to push air.. Which means they will also not spin properly in the airflow which is key to getting them to relight.

3 Your wings will at that point already be iced up as well to the point where they are draggy and unable to provide lift.
Every second your engines are flamed out, your wings are icing up to the point where even the working deicing system won't manage to overcome the ice

So I'de say , no , in your scenario, you won't be able to relight and you are on your way to your maker.


Note : not a rated pilot of any kind, just basing myself off numerous sources and making an educated guess.


https://skybrary.aero/articles/high-level-ice-crystal-icing-effects-engines
They don't discuss them flaming out, just vibrations and loss of thrust.

[Joeaksa]

Originally Posted by edgemar

Question for you guys:

If you fly into icing conditions while descending to an airport and you forget to turn the auto-ignition on and the engines flame out (due to icing) is it possible to re-light them while still flying in those conditions?

I do it for a living (been a factory pilot for Boeing, McDonnell Douglas military side, and Bombardier corporate) so have a bit of experience.

Your issue is time. How much time do you have? Most modern A/C have hyd flight controls and the second you lose both engines the RAT (ram air turbine) pops out to provide you with emergency hyd and basic electric power, so you are still under control but...

You can usually get one engine going in 20-30 seconds as long as your APU is still running, but its an awful long time. Once you get one re-lit you can maintain level flight most of the time but you really want both running if you are in ANY icing. Remember that all this ice is building up by the second and the airplane is getting heavier and heavier...

As I said above, its really a matter of time and how much altitude and clearance you have to work with. If you are at 20,000 feet coming down you should have more than enough time to fuss with it. If you are at 3000 feet and on the approach, then its going to be tight.

[Seahawk]

Originally Posted by Joeaksa

I do it for a living (been a factory pilot for Boeing, McDonnell Douglas military side, and Bombardier corporate) so have a bit of experience.

Joe, have you ever had an ice(ing) induced engine stall or flame out?

I have not.

[Joeaksa]

Originally Posted by Seahawk

What I loved about the video was the radio discipline. Weird, I know, but a real Pilot/Navigator skill is learning how to communicate on the radio.

Some never get it. Great video.

I had a Special Instrument Card, which meant I could take off in zero/zero conditions.

I did it once: Left McClellan Air Force Base in the Tule fog for NAS North Island, San Diego which was CAVU.

It is an odd sensation.

I have landed in zero/zero but refuse to take off like this.

Flew medivac in Berlin Germany at Tempelhof Air base for many years. The GCA controllers were the best in the world (remember the Berlin Air Lift?) and we were at min fuel once we got overhead, so no options.

The US Air Force guys were great and got us down to the runway and could even tell us if we were on the center-line. Finally got a follow-me truck to come out and help in the fog, and they almost ran into the wing-tip, it was that thick!

[rattlsnak]

As far as visibility, I fly a 757 and do Cat III autoland ops quite frequently on the east coast in the winter..(and occasionally when fog banks move in at places like LAX, SEA, PDX etc. We can go down to 500ft. RVR for T/O at most airports. As far as icing, the engine anti ice comes on anytime you are in visible moisture and the temp is below 10C. Wings usually only come on when we see ice sticking to the airframe somewhere which is in fact, really rare. Most bigger jet transport airplanes don't have a pilot selectable continuous ignition source to turn on.

[edgemar]

Thanks for the comments. I asked based on this incident:

Kathryn's Report: Swearingen SA-226AT Merlin IV, N54GP: Fatal accident occurred December 10, 2021 near Manchester-Boston Regional Airport (KMHT), New Hampshire

One running theory is that he forgot to have his auto-igniters on and his engines flamed out on his final approach in icing conditions. Seems like that oversight was fatal.

[svandamme]

Turbo prop, overlooked those can flame out as well.



If only one engine died at low altitude on approach
Auto ignitors, till engine is fully restarted, the prop is windmilling and dragging not thrusting.

At low alt, it might have been difficult to get the flamed out engine back up in time to keep it from departing.. low speed, low rudder effectiveness, high drag on one side, thrust on the other side.. adverse yaw is a horrible thing



IF both engined died.. at that altitude his non feathered props would be like having an air brake.


If they flamed out higher up.. he might have had more options.. But autoigniters would have been a key requirement.

Either way, Wasn't there, Don't have all the details, I'm just thinking out loud.

To me based on that initial report.. and the commetns.
looks like somebody very young who is flying a handful of a plane by himself
didn't do his checklist
ran into trouble , overwhelmed and ran out of time , altitude and ideas