Miami condo collapse

[drcoastline]

The issues being shown in the engineers report and photos is so typical of what I see on a near daily basis.

[Crowbob]

It looks like the degradation of the concrete and embedded rebar is not uncommon. That coupled with the building being built on mushy ground caused the collapse.

Hopefully, the combination of the two factors is NOT common.

I'll bet thousands of buildings are being evaluated at this moment.

This could get real ugly.

[URY914]

Originally Posted by Crowbob

It looks like the degradation of the concrete and embedded rebar is not uncommon. That coupled with the building being built on mushy ground caused the collapse.

Hopefully, the combination of the two factors is NOT common.

I'll bet thousands of buildings are being evaluated at this moment.

This could get real ugly.

Add to it the pool's reported leaking. Like I said earlier, it's a perfect storm of 3-4 or 5 factors.

[A930Rocket]

Originally Posted by URY914

Add to it the pool's reported leaking. Like I said earlier, it's a perfect storm of 3-4 or 5 factors.

Reading comments from the previous building maintenance man is scary. He said they had salt water intrusion up to 2 feet deep multiple times dating back to the late 90s.

That can’t be good.

[masraum]

Originally Posted by A930Rocket

Reading comments from the previous building maintenance man is scary. He said they had salt water intrusion up to 2 feet deep multiple times dating back to the late 90s.

That can’t be good.

And I think he said that they had standing salt water once a month on any very high tide.

[dad911]

I suspect water in UG parking is fairly common also. We had it in the keys. We also had an extremely large (bigger than pool, probably 50-100k gallons) concrete cistern under the buildings that stored rainwater for watering and the pool. On occasion it would bubble up through the patio overflow.

I'd be interested in board meeting minutes and correspondence. Our board hid & glossed over reports for almost 10 years, until the building department took away the CO of a unit with a failing balcony, and threatened to pull the whole building. Instead of repairing spalling concrete properly, they would just caulk over it.

Unfortunately our board was composed of owners that bought multiple units, and a realtor that held proxies for about 70 units, so they did everything possible to keep monthly costs down, as these units were rented out.

When our 8+ million dollar project was done, and values recovered, we bailed and sold.

From an email I sent in 2012:

b) A 2003 report indicated that the post-tension cables in building C needed to be repaired/maintained. Why, almost 10 years later, is there still no maintenance program or fund for this?

c) 2005 xxxxxx reports that "The exposed concrete columns, beams, and slabs have experienced concrete deterioration......The cracking in the garage columns which are fairly protected may be revealing that the concrete has chloride contamination which is accelerating reinforcement corrosion. If chloride and carbonation testing has not been performed on the concrete structure, it need to be performed.... all expansion joints are in poor condition..... "

d) 2009 xxxxxx reports "The condition of the concrete at xyz Condominiums has dramatically deteriorated from our review and report issued June17, 2005. To my knowledge, none of the recommendations in the report have been implemented."

e) Was chloride and carbonation testing done as recommended in the 2005 report? Why were reserve funds not being budgeted from 2003 or 2005 until today? Why were the repairs and recommendations from 2003 & 2005 reports ignored? This has greatly increased the cost of repair to the owners of this association.

Engineering firms names replaced by xxxxxx

[stomachmonkey]

Originally Posted by Crowbob

I'll bet thousands of buildings are being evaluated at this moment.

I'm smelling opportunity.

When you buy a house you have it inspected.

How about an inspection company for large units like this.

They don't just check the unit someone is looking to buy they inspect the whole building including any local government inspection reports.

The focus would be to try and determine current state and what repairs may be needed down the road and what the unit owners exposure to shared expenses could be.

It would not be a cheap service but the point is to protect against future exposure.

Might be a good gig to do with some retired engineers.

I imagine even Insurance Companies would be potential clients.

[javadog]

I'm starting to think there was significant differential settlement. If you look at where the most water was ponding in the lower level of the parking garage, it's in the same area of the building footprint where the worst of the moisture problem was on the roof. The moisture problem on the roof suggests ponding in that area of the roof. Add both of those together and it suggests that the center part of the building had settled.

[3rd_gear_Ted]

Our home in Baja was built in 1987 with cinder block, rebar & concrete.
It sits right next to the ocean.

If the rust starts going on the rebar, it will continually expand and migrate the length of the rebar.
There should be at least three inches of concrete surrounding the rebar core in the vertical plane.
My concrete support beams have 4 inches on the top & bottom with two inches on the sides around the rebar core. Those pictures taken in Florida show a lot less concrete surrounding the rebar. Mexican concrete (Cemex) is better than the state side recipe by far. (they have No wood, so they have to have good concrete)

[McLovin]

Originally Posted by dad911

Unfortunately our board was composed of owners that bought multiple units, and a realtor that held proxies for about 70 units, so they did everything possible to keep monthly costs down, as these units were rented out.

My guess is something similar was happening there.
People aren’t keen on spending $15 million to fix “invisible” (hidden from view) problems, and no one expects that ignoring things for a few more years is going to end in the entire building collapsing.

[Bill Douglas]

Originally Posted by Black968

Support Rebar should be epoxy coated to prevent corrosion in salty environments, always.

We do better than that were I live (waves coming over the road ), we galvanise the rebar. And there is some additive for the concrete that stops water ingress.

[URY914]

Billions of yards of concrete have been places on non-epoxy and non-galvanized rebar in millions of building all over the world.

One building falls down after 40 years and now you want all jobs to use epoxy or galvanized bars?

Come on get real.

[daepp]

Think of all the concrete bridges near water - esp salty water???

[Crowbob]

If you want to read about a concrete/rebar water infiltration boondoggle look up the Zilwaukee Bridge, the construction of which commenced in 1979.

[URY914]

Originally Posted by daepp

Think of all the concrete bridges near water - esp salty water???

Galvanized rebar is used in bridge construction but that is our tax dollars at work. Not developers building condos to sell.

[1990C4S]

Originally Posted by daepp

Think of all the concrete bridges near water - esp salty water???

Think of all the bridges in the north covered in salt every winter....

[Crowbob]

Originally Posted by URY914

Galvanized rebar is used in bridge construction but that is our tax dollars at work. Not developers building condos to sell.

I again refer to the Zilwaukee Bridge. True, tax dollars were at work. Lots and lots of tax dollars at work.

[nota]

Originally Posted by URY914

Billions of yards of concrete have been places on non-epoxy and non-galvanized rebar in millions of building all over the world.

One building falls down after 40 years and now you want all jobs to use epoxy or galvanized bars?

Come on get real.

never saw any such coated rebar used in s fla
not in docks seawalls or bridges
nor in the water and sewer plants we built
let alone condo's

I retired in 2000
live aboard 1976 till 1995

[nota]

wonder how often those concrete poles get hit in a parking garage
salt and pool chemicals
even minor hits = cracks
cracks = rusted rebar
rusted rebar = failure of the support pole

[daepp]

Originally Posted by URY914

Galvanized rebar is used in bridge construction but that is our tax dollars at work. Not developers building condos to sell.

I'm a concrete contractor (albeit I have nothing to do with roads and bridges), but I keep my eye out for such things nonetheless. I never saw a piece of coated rebar in CA or Louisiana until maybe ten years ago. Anecdotal I know, just my $.02.