black bear advice - Page 6

jeffgrant · 07-19-2010, 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by m21sniper

I have several types of slugs in my inventory, including some of the air pellet shaped led sabot slugs, some of the solid copper hollowpoint type slugs and some conventional rifled type full bore slugs. While i suspect any of them would work quite well, i was just curious which would be the "best."

I ask because i go up my uncles mountain a few times every summer, and they have Black bears on said mountain.

If it were me, I'd go for the bigger, non-saboted slug. Sure, you can't reach out quite as far as accurately, but you get more stopping power in close, which is where you're likely to experience any problems anyway.

m21sniper · 07-19-2010, 05:01 PM

Thanks for the input Jeff.

Jeff Higgins · 07-19-2010, 06:07 PM

If you are stuck with a shotgun, like in a shotgun only hunting area, I would follow Jeff's advice. That said, I'm no fan of the shotgun for big game hunting and I'm even less of a fan of them for defense against bears.

Shotguns lack penetration. Especially buckshot, but Jeff already ruled that out, and I agree. Slugs are not much better, though. They work well enough on broadside lung shots on deer and smallish black bear, but they lack the penetration needed to make it all the way through even that light resistance most of the time. Try to break a shoulder with one and often that is where they will stop, leaving a non-fatal, but very nasty wound. At least not immediately fatal.

So, what does this have to do with defending one's self against a bear? Well, assuming you even have time to react (because you see him coming), you don't get to take that broadside lung shot. He will be facing you. You will be looking to penetrate very substantial muscle and/or bone to get into the chest cavity, or one one hell of a thick skull that is laying at quite an angle. A slug will not penetrate either.

You are far better off with a light, fast handling carbine. Even the lowly thutty thutty will out-perform the mighty 12 gauge under these circumstances. Up the ante to something like Marlin's .45-70 Guide gun, and you will have some serious bear medicine in a very small, fast handling package - smaller and quicker than even a "combat" shotgun, and carrying one hell of a lot more "stopping power".

enzo1 · 07-19-2010, 06:21 PM

cool gun, u know your stuff...

m21sniper · 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

If you are stuck with a shotgun, like in a shotgun only hunting area, I would follow Jeff's advice. That said, I'm no fan of the shotgun for big game hunting and I'm even less of a fan of them for defense against bears.

Seriously? Almost everything i've read about the subject suggests that a short barrel pump or semi shotgun with a mag full of slugs was the way to go. In thread after thread on site after site you see this recommended by "guide types."

Now i am seriously befuddled....

It is really just an abstract question to me. I'm never going to intentionally hunt bear, and the odds of me having to shoot one at my uncles are extremely small- as i would ONLY shoot one if it was absolutely threatening me beyond any doubt, but the possibility does exist.

I do know that some of the solid copper sabot slugs give tremendous penetration, which is why i asked if they'd be better than rifled slugs. It seems you're saying that they would.

This offering from federal is a huge solid copper .50 cal ballistic tipped bullet at about 2000fps.

I also have some of these, which are solid copper "air pellet" style .50 caliber sabot slugs, 1 oz, also nudging 2000fps (advertised).

Jeff Higgins · 07-19-2010, 08:17 PM

The few times I have actually made the trip to Alaska to hunt (never bears, much to my dismay), my buddy and his friends that lived in Ketchikan, along with the "guide types" we hunted with, would all snicker and give one another that "here we go again..." kind of a look when the subject of shotguns as bear defense came up. Or handguns, for that matter. They all preferred rifles.

Their take was that shotguns had somehow gained popularity, mainly among fishing guides, for reasons other than effectiveness. Typically, when fishing an area where bears might be a problem, your "wilderness experience" is going to shared with an awful lot of other people, even if you can't see them. The vast majority will have never seen a bear in the wild. In such places, however, the vast majority of bears will have seen people, and are not a threat. The ones that are a threat get killed by guides with rifles.

Anyway, when a harmless bruin ambles out of the tall grass in near proximity to a fisherman, the last thing you want said fisherman to do is to panic and start shooting at the damn thing. So, you tell him to bring a shotgun, typically loaded with alternating slugs and buckshot, and tell him it won't be effective unless the bear is real close. Well, guess what - those bears know how to play the game, and never get real close. So the guy who is pissing his waders never "has" to shoot him. And, if worse comes to worse and some fool does start blasting away, at least he isn't sending high velocity rifle bullets miles in every direction. The limited range of the shotgun is a huge safety factor with regards to the other fishermen in the area. It serves more as an alarm, alerting the guide that he has a problem to deal with. He will usually deal with it with a rifle. A big rifle.

Guys who are "out there", alone, and reliant upon themselves to sort it out, invariably carry large rifles.

jeffgrant · 07-19-2010, 11:28 PM

By no means do I profess to be any kind of ballistics/penetration expert, but I have taken a few bear with both rifle (same .30-06 A-Bolt I've had since I was 16), as well as shotgun with slug.

Much like Jeff said, when purposely hunting bear, it's with the rifle, every time. Nothing beats distance and precision to me. The only bears I've taken with the shotgun have been while stalking deer in relatively thick brush where a rifle isn't as useful. (You'd be lucky to get a shot longer than 80 yards).

In either case, I've never found penetration to be an issue, and personally feel comfortable with either choice.

Jeff Higgins · 07-20-2010, 07:11 AM

My experience with slugs is very limited, being comprised of just a couple deer taken in shotgun only areas. I was warned to take only broadside shots, so I did. My favorite broadside shot is the break the near shoulder and angle into the vitals, or to go through the vitals and angle to the far shoulder, with my choice depending upon the angle presented.

My very first shot was a near side shoulder shot. The animal hunched up, but never went down. The second was through the lungs, and he went down. The first slug broke the shoulder alright, but pretty much stopped right there. The second one, through the lungs, failed to exit. I was less than impressed.

Years later, I found myself toting a shotgun once again, and I kept that experience in mind the whole time. I waited for a dead-on, 90 degree broadside shot and put it in the heart/lung area. He dropped like a sack of spuds. Once again, though, the slug failed to exit.

To me, that is a "lack of penetration". Yes, the slugs did their job. I just don't like being limited with regards to the angle I'm shooting from. I want full penetration, from any angle, even if breaking heavy bone on the way in. I've had much better luck with that. And, while I have taken (and hope to never take) one, I believe it would be extremely important on a frontal shot on an approaching bear.

scottmandue · 07-20-2010, 08:12 AM

Get 1.5 liter of cheap tequila... drain it doing shots with the bear... bear wakes up in bed next to you with roaring hangover... bear won't be back.

GG Allin · GG Allin's Garage

Curious if a .458 SOCOM AR would stop a bear.

Rednine11 · 07-20-2010, 11:04 AM

I can stop your bear ...took a few shots yesterday with my Grizzly 50 BMG

Rednine11 · 07-20-2010, 11:05 AM

50 BMG....for when you care enough to only send the best......

ODDJOB UNO · ODDJOB UNO's Garage

oh this has bean a good read. i love how desk pusher "flatlanders" solve these dilemmas. LMFAO over some of these einstein suggestions.

now 1st and foremost ya must read all about ballistics. a 9mm a .38 spec are flat ass worthless and any smaller caliber. especially when the damn bear is charging you at mega warp speed. oh yeah yer gonna aim and hit him in the eye. when pigs fly out my arse. cheese and rice what the hell action hero novels have you been reading or watching on TV?

9mm and .45's are just dandy for personnal protection. criminal felons are easy to kill with those calibers, even if on meth. not much to it. just empty the damn mag and if not down, do a combat reload and empty that mag. hence why the military went to the M-9. but when confronted by cold weather and bad guys wearing multiple layers of clothes, thats where GI's are pissing and moaning about stopping power with a FMJ round. funny how most semi autos always feed with a FMJ vs. a HP. clue here : make sure yer semi auto likes eating HP's before carrying.

now after placing myself in harms way ,too many times with bears in washington state/colorado/utah/arizona/kalif/new messiko with just (yeah just) black bears aka OSO NEGRO HORRIBILUS. i have come to the conclusion over the years to up the ante and make damn sure of the preservation of me and my familys well being when out in da wilds of BFE.

and once(juance) agin we come full circle to ballistics. since my epiphany re: ballistics we aint going nowheres in the wilds of BFE w/out a minimum of a very hot .357 round period. and the other ones will be carrying .44 mags. i'll take those (2) rds any day over a 9mm or a .45.

the speed of a bear is beyond any normal reasoning and its just flat ass scarey to watch up close. last time over to new messiko in the gila wilderness area right along the border of national forest and wilderness, soon to be wifey and i ran into mommy bear and baby bears nailing the exact berry bushes we were going after. we got our butts out of their so fast it would make yer head spin. they are nothing to joke about or screw with. berries/baby bears/and mommy bear= a real bad confrontation every single time.

after a few more encounters that we have had over the years fishing/camping/quading/dirty biking/4 wheeling, we have learned, when you encounter them, you can bet yer arse they are gonna be back. where we stay in new messiko the owner has a marlin .30.30 loaded on safety next to all doors. 170gr soft points. a very potent anti OSO NEGRO round.

for humans semi-autos are my choice(todays another walther ppk/s day - its damn hot).

for kritters: mtn lions and OSO NEGROS: wheel gun .357 backed up by my lever .357 and a .44mag on hip with a back up lever action .44 mag. if i were hunting bears i would take my .30.30/.44 mag for brushy thick areas and for more open areas, any of my .308's will do just fine. shooting across meadows, then a bolt .308 w/scope is perfect.

when berry picking in new messiko one of us stands guard with .30.30 or a .308 or a 12ga snotgun. ALL THE TIME SCANNING THE HILLSIDES. its not a joke man they will FEEK YOU UP FAST before you know it. and in thick cover they are damn quiet and sneaky. bears dont hang out in the open, they like thick forest if it is up to them. and thats why a wheel gun is yer best bet. they are idiot proof same as a lever action or a pump action.

ask us all about black bears. actually some idiots want to re-introduce grizzilies URSUS HORRIBILUS back into arizona in its traditional area of the blue wilderness which bounders on the new messiko border about 35 miles form where we stay in new messiko. we have alot of bears here and in new messiko. i dont think grizzlies need to be brought in for more giggles.

having a black bear suddenly stroll along the black river bank here while standing in the river fly fishing isnt exactly what i call a fun time! having been warned by the san carlos rez game and fish officer he was out of bean bag 12ga rounds and all he had was his AR-15 wasnt real comforting. when he saw my SOCOM M1A he stated "you should be alright, but remember where there is one, there will be more roaming these camp grounds." and sho nuff the following morning at 6am as we were heading out to fish, here come (2) more bears going thru firepits. thats why its always nice to leave all yer garbage in the fire pits for the next person to enjoy all sorts of wildlife right in their face. ie. PACK IT IN PACK IT OUT!

fishing with a SOCOM on yer back sucks. therefore a hot nasty .357 or .44 mag is the ticket. they always GO BANG WHEN YA NEED IT TO!

speed loaders will help greatly if worried about yer shootin skills while POOING YER SELF SILLY when they charge.

m21sniper · 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

My experience with slugs is very limited, being comprised of just a couple deer taken in shotgun only areas. I was warned to take only broadside shots, so I did. My favorite broadside shot is the break the near shoulder and angle into the vitals, or to go through the vitals and angle to the far shoulder, with my choice depending upon the angle presented.

My very first shot was a near side shoulder shot. The animal hunched up, but never went down. The second was through the lungs, and he went down. The first slug broke the shoulder alright, but pretty much stopped right there. The second one, through the lungs, failed to exit. I was less than impressed.

Years later, I found myself toting a shotgun once again, and I kept that experience in mind the whole time. I waited for a dead-on, 90 degree broadside shot and put it in the heart/lung area. He dropped like a sack of spuds. Once again, though, the slug failed to exit.

To me, that is a "lack of penetration". Yes, the slugs did their job. I just don't like being limited with regards to the angle I'm shooting from. I want full penetration, from any angle, even if breaking heavy bone on the way in. I've had much better luck with that. And, while I have taken (and hope to never take) one, I believe it would be extremely important on a frontal shot on an approaching bear.

What kind of slugs? I know that the old style rifled slugs had lots of reported penetration issues, but i've read that Brenneke type full bore slugs and most sabot slugs are excellent penetrators, lots of times.

Instinctively i cannot help but think that a solid copper .50cal 3" mag sabot slug has got to be in an entirely different league than a soft lead full bore "pumpkin ball" rifled slug in the penetration department.

Obviously a shotgun is not a long ranged weapon, so i was asking from a merely defensive perspective. If a bear gets close enough to kill me, i'll be close enough to kill him too.

Anyway, if i ever shoot a bear with one, i'll let you know how it goes, and what i used...lol

ODDJOB UNO · ODDJOB UNO's Garage

brenneke are most eggzelant slugs.

since alot of pilots summer in alaska from here, ya kind of get to know some of the ins and outs and whats B.S. and whats real world reality.

a big bore lever is popular 45/70 etc. as well as .338's and .375's.

your 1st round on a snotgun should be #6 birdshot aimed at face to blind them. if they cant see you they cant charge directly at you.

your next round should be 000 BUCK 3" magnum for blacks or browns. more shot than OO buck.

yer 3rd round should be a breneke slug 3" magnum to whatever angle shot you have at this point.

next a OOO buck, then slug,then OOO buck then slug and prey to gawd he/she is dead!

bring plenty of toilet paper.

what the hell else are ya gonna do??? WAVE THE FRENCH FLAG?

are ya GONNA RUN? you'll just DIE TIRED!

bear scat/bear track/ and wunder of wunders: BEARS is GURRANTEED ALONG the NEW MESSIKO/ARIZONA BORDER!

going varmint hunting by yerself here in the dezerts with a call(raped wabbit) be it a tape on a ghetto blaster or a hand held call is BEGGING TO BECOME MTN KITTY POO!

the same holds forth for BEARS if yer varmint calling in the higher elevations. hell we get bears all the way down in the dezert elevations when its damn hot like it is now going after cholla cactus berries.

it can happen anywhere just like crime. except its ANIMAL CRIME and yer the VICTIM!

Jeff Higgins · 07-20-2010, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by m21sniper

What kind of slugs? I know that the old style rifled slugs had lots of reported penetration issues, but i've read that Brenneke type full bore slugs and most sabot slugs are excellent penetrators, lots of times.

Instinctively i cannot help but think that a solid copper .50cal 3" mag sabot slug has got to be in an entirely different league than a soft lead full bore "pumpkin ball" rifled slug in the penetration department.

Obviously a shotgun is not a long ranged weapon, so i was asking from a merely defensive perspective. If a bear gets close enough to kill me, i'll be close enough to kill him too.

Anyway, if i ever shoot a bear with one, i'll let you know how it goes, and what i used...lol

They were the old Foster slugs. I've never used the Brenneke or any of the more modern saboted slugs.

I agree, those just have to be superior to the Foster in just about every way. I would think the .50 caliber saboted slug would be akin to a .50 or .54 caliber muzzle loader shooting a Maxi Ball or something. I'll personally vouch for the .54 caliber with a 460 grain bullet - I've killed over two dozen deer with just that combination. Full penetration on every hit, with not a single recovered bullet.

So, reflecting on that a bit more, I'm sure you are right. Stay with the Brennekes or .50 caliber slugs, and I'm sure you would be fine.

ODDJOB UNO · ODDJOB UNO's Garage

just a sidebar for sniper here. if yer gonna go combat wombat out in the boonies with yer snotgun, tear the damn thing all the way apart if ya havent and clean the hell outta it and lube it.

now since yer wasting time like me, go to brownells and see if they have "anti-walk" pins for your trigger group. if im not mistaken yours is the same set up as my HK/BENELLI and my BENELLI's trigger group.

i'm almost damn sure they are the same.

if ya notice all it takes is a punch to push the trigger group pins out. after a few 1000 rds of being hammered to hell and going in and out upon cleaning the tolerances open up to the point those pins can and do fall right out. my REM 870 was a fine example of this. its an older REM 870.

anyway these "anti-walk" trigger pins are the katz azz as far as being TOTALLY KOMBAT WOMBAT prepared for any and all zombeez and bears and mtn lions and teryadactyls roaming around.

these pins are threaded on one side and will never come out, dropping yer trigger group on the ground were it becomes quite worthless and you become BEAR POO!

m21sniper · 07-20-2010, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

They were the old Foster slugs. I've never used the Brenneke or any of the more modern saboted slugs.

I agree, those just have to be superior to the Foster in just about every way. I would think the .50 caliber saboted slug would be akin to a .50 or .54 caliber muzzle loader shooting a Maxi Ball or something. I'll personally vouch for the .54 caliber with a 460 grain bullet - I've killed over two dozen deer with just that combination. Full penetration on every hit, with not a single recovered bullet.

So, reflecting on that a bit more, I'm sure you are right. Stay with the Brennekes or .50 caliber slugs, and I'm sure you would be fine.

I was just reading some more, it seems that the best 12 ga 3" sabot slugs equal the ballistics and trajectory of 'hot' .45-70 handloads. 385gr .50cal bullet at 2000fps.

Best Brenneke style 12ga slug seems to be a 3" Remington firing a 1 3/8oz full bore slug at 1750fps.

Old style foster rifled slugs have been totally eclipsed it seems, in both smooth and rifled barrels. I wonder why companies still make them.

Good article i found about shotgun slugs:

Shotgun Slugs

Of course i have a better chance of nailing Shakira than getting attacked by a bear, but as i learned in the boyscouts...it's nice to be prepared.

Jeff Higgins · 07-20-2010, 02:30 PM

So, one has to wonder what will happen (in light of all this slug development) to all of the shotgun only hunting areas. The whole idea behind them is safety due to their limited range. I can see where technology has now rendered that moot. I wonder when game departments will notice and take measures against all of this.

Same thing happened with my beloved muzzle loader seasons, in a way. Not that game departments have reacted (at least not all of them, and not sufficiently) to that, either. I see scoped bolt action stainless/synthetic rifles with O-rings sealing the breech against the weather, some even rated for smokeless powders, and shooting plastic sabots containing X Bullets. "Primitive hunt" my ass. They adhere to the letter of the rules, but not the spirit. There has been a lot of talk about this in muzzle loading circles in the last decade. More enlightened game departments have now reeled these in, going to a more "primitive" rule set. Pennsylvania even requires flintlocks, with round ball only, if one would participate in their special season. And this isn't a safety issue like these "long range" slugs clearly are.

ODDJOB UNO · ODDJOB UNO's Garage

there are (3) men missing from utah now for 2 weeks IN THE DREADED SUPERSTITION MOUNTAINS! the search has been called off. fixed wing and rotary assets called off. horseyback riders called back.

i think EL OSO NEGRO GOT 'EM!

come on out to ARIZONA ANYTIME! especially NOW THIS TIME OF YEAR!

i will personally GUIDE YOU and POINT YOU IN THE EXACT DIRECTION of THE LOST DUTCHMAN MINE!

my fee is a lowly measly $10,000 BEFORE I POINT MY FINGER IN THE CORRECT DIRECTION!

payable in small unmarked non sequential numbered bills.

BEAR and MTN. KITTY autographed by ME pistol/rifle rounds will be included in this remarkable once in a(yuck yuck) LIFETIME WILDLAND ADVENTURE!