2.7 x-faktory PMO EFI Upgrade.

[rwest]

Originally Posted by BCLi

That truly is fantastic. You are more dedicated to the details than I am - I left the tins alone as well as the shroud. But I did put in a cooler, since there was no trombone or other cooler - just a line from the crossover valve to the oil tank. Like you, we'll see how much cooler the car runs. But exciting progress! Great perseverance.

Hi Bert,

My car is on the edge of needing a cooler and as we all know adding a cooler to a car that never had one is about $3,000- ouch!

So, I wanted to make sure that every tiny item that might help was taken care of. I used BBQ grill gasket tape and caulk to try and prevent air from the fan from just blowing out into the engine compartment rather than making its way across the cylinder fins- we’ll see if I was successful.

Rutager

[BCLi]

Well, the good news is that you're making progress! It's great how you're getting the cells filled in as much as possible - I have done something similar, but going both vertically and horizontally given the population of traffic in my area. I did filter the autotune to above idle, which I did independently both at cold start via the warm up pull down, and at hot start, due to the issue you faced with the software (I saw on one of the message boards that tuning the idle "manually" is better than using autotune, and I believe Al noted that as well in a conversation). So sorry that you got that scratch - hopefully it's a relatively easy repair. But congrats on continuing to make progress on your tune! I drove my car 45 miles this AM to test out my oil cooler, and to evaluate the advance - both of which seem to be functioning.

[BCLi]

Originally Posted by rwest

Hi Bert,

My car is on the edge of needing a cooler and as we all know adding a cooler to a car that never had one is about $3,000- ouch!

So, I wanted to make sure that every tiny item that might help was taken care of. I used BBQ grill gasket tape and caulk to try and prevent air from the fan from just blowing out into the engine compartment rather than making its way across the cylinder fins- we’ll see if I was successful.

Rutager

I definitely understand. While the gauge thermometer on my car reads above 210 degrees F, the 'coolant' input from the megasquirt was reading 240 degrees F + and giving me a nasty scary warning across the screen of caution (and presumably impending doom). So I put in the Setrab front mount cooler (I do it right, 'cause I do it twice/three times to get it right) since I have a RUF tribute bumper that I could install behind. I did try to seal off any leaks in the shroud, but not in as much detail as you. Sounds like your car is running cool now. Wonderful progress! Mine today was running at about 205 degrees F max with 'spirited' driving.

[rwest]

Nice looking bumper- did you calibrate your coolant sensor? I put mine in the freezer, then used room temp and finally full engine heat to input the ohms at each test point to calibrate; ECU now agrees with Car.

I’m hardly ready to proclaim cooling victory until it is fully tuned and in warm weather, but I feel much better after we got the ignition advancing as I would think that would cause heat issues.

[BCLi]

Originally Posted by OSC911

I just hook up my timing light to the wires going to the COP - works perfectly. Even works on both my kids RAV 4s and my Landcruiser. Timing light flashes like a dream.

Originally Posted by al lkosmal

Bert, the extender works perfectly. If you can please provide the link to where you read that there is an issue using that method, I would like to read it. I've used that extender method, starting with my 1st COPs installations of Rasant systems, as well as motec, M'squirt etc. basically all of the COPs systems i've worked on.

Note: some timing lights will pick up logic level signals, which is what the MS3X and other systems use to trigger the coil ignitors, others do not and require the extender..

regards,
al

Remember, your crank trigger system just requires for you to check initial timing to ensure sync and that the M'squirt initial timing setting matches the actual timing, as verified by your timing light. I set the ignition advance to "fixed" timing at 0 degrees and verify with my timing light. The tooth #1 angle is used to dial in the timing. I.E. to set the timing at TDC. Once that is verified, you change the timing back to "Use Table" and then the timing chart controls the timing/advance......and, you can use your timing light to double check that the timing is following the chart and advancing per the chart.

You have your engine running....so this part of the process must be well underway.

Al was kind enough to refer me to another type of timing light, which I have been calling around to try to rent to see if it is less influenced by wasted spark.
Also did try my Innova 3551 (pretty much the most basic one out there) and still get inconsistent results when I hook it onto my coil wire. However, weirdly, when I just lay the pickup on top of the coil, which I did inadvertently, I get a consistent timing light signal. Not sure why this is the case - perhaps it's what Al noted, but it seems to ID TDC etc. Go figure. But I will still try to find the other timing light that was suggested.

[BCLi]

Originally Posted by rwest

Nice looking bumper- did you calibrate your coolant sensor? I put mine in the freezer, then used room temp and finally full engine heat to input the ohms at each test point to calibrate; ECU now agrees with Car.

I’m hardly ready to proclaim cooling victory until it is fully tuned and in warm weather, but I feel much better after we got the ignition advancing as I would think that would cause heat issues.

I didn't calibrate it since I didn't think of it. That's another thing on the to do list. Thanks for suggesting it - I actually think my ECU coolant temp is more accurate than my gauge temp, but only the calibration will tell the tale.

[rwest]

Depending on the brand of sensor, you might have got one that was in the preprogrammed section. Al supplied a real nice VDO unit and surprisingly it wasn’t listed, so I did my own calculations and entered them.

My next step is going to be to try balance the ITBs again- I’m close, but the cruising RPM adjustments where difficult as I was getting a lot of popping making the gauges jump around a lot.

This might be a several try’s sort of thing between VE runs until the engine stops popping.

My VE table is still not real smooth.

[BCLi]

I think I have a GM temp sensor, but am not sure about that - no harm in doing some calibration as needed, though (maybe Al can comment on that since he sold it to me). I've balanced the ITBs a number of times, and now it seems like they are all pulling the same. I do get some popping when I down shift (but not when I take it out of gear) and the AFR is still not lean, so I think it's a transition state is too acute with load. So, I used both the horizontal and vertical smoothing functions, which has helped some, after having driven the car a fair bit and hitting as many of the cells as I could.

[rwest]

Jamie has been looking at my data logs and has commented that he thinks my ITBs still aren’t balanced side to side.

I found my original instructions and looking at my cross bar to ITB double ball linkage, one was almost straight up and down and the other was at an angle- picture in instructions shows slight angle for both. I switched out the large balljoint that has the adjuster nut on it in the cross bar to the opposite side and now they have equal angle I neglected to take a picture of the before, but here’s one of the after. I adjusted the brackets on each ITB and think I’m very close to being balanced at 2-3,000 RPMs- took a drive and sent a log off to Jamie.

[rwest]

Originally Posted by BCLi

I think I have a GM temp sensor, but am not sure about that - no harm in doing some calibration as needed, though (maybe Al can comment on that since he sold it to me). I've balanced the ITBs a number of times, and now it seems like they are all pulling the same. I do get some popping when I down shift (but not when I take it out of gear) and the AFR is still not lean, so I think it's a transition state is too acute with load. So, I used both the horizontal and vertical smoothing functions, which has helped some, after having driven the car a fair bit and hitting as many of the cells as I could.

I’m thinking of the lean popping when decelerating in gear and was going to try and do a VE tune some morning on a long steady hill that I know of and do a run at each RPM zone to try and get the auto tune to make changes at low MAP- I think that will work?

[al lkosmal]

Rutager and Bert,
Sounds like you two are getting very close.....I've used different temp sensors over the years, but you both should have VDO temp sensors that get mounted in the left side chain cover (installed in the Thermo-Time sensor port) VDO does not make it easy to find the cal info....but here you go. However, the sensor tolerances are pretty wide, so calibrating, based on your Porsche gauge and/or per the patented Rutager method is advised.
regards,
AL


Rutager,
I'd be interested in see your temp sensor cal, after you verified it against a thermometer, etc. and that will be a good check against the VDO document.

[Showdown]

Re: the VDO temp sensor; I have one from Al and I found it to be so wildly inaccurate that I had to create a new map for it.

I used an infrared heat gun and adjusted the values in megasquirt to match the actual readings at cold and running temp and now it’s a-ok. Highly recommend.

[al lkosmal]

Julian and Rutager,
Please post the cal numbers you are using for the VDO sensor I supply with my kits. The VDO spec sheet is shown above, but there is a pretty large tolerance, as you can see in the spec sheet, so tweaking is typically required . You both sound as if you've used good methods to verify the temps and cal the sensor in M'squirt...... so i'd like to see how your cal numbers relate to the VDO spec and how they relate to each other. I'd gladly provide better cal numbers than those found in the VDO published specs, if your cal numbers outside of the published specs.

regards,
al

[Showdown]

Hey Al,

Here are my values for my 1977 2.7 with stock CIS P&C.



These work for me and the use of the IR gun was critical to establishing these values over multiple drives…

[rwest]

Here’s my table. Seems to track with the car’s gauge...

I put it in the freezer for the low value and did the other two in the car.

[BCLi]

Originally Posted by rwest

I’m thinking of the lean popping when decelerating in gear and was going to try and do a VE tune some morning on a long steady hill that I know of and do a run at each RPM zone to try and get the auto tune to make changes at low MAP- I think that will work?

I'd be interested in hearing how that goes. I've had another driver in the car while I monitor the computer and with the exception of a lean spike momentarily, it stays around 15 for the most part. Looking forward to your data!

[BCLi]

Thanks Al, Julien and Rutager - I'll have to try to create a table of my own and see how it matches to your values.

[rwest]

I’ve been working on getting my ITBs balanced and Jamie kept telling me that my MAP signal fluctuates a lot and he thinks they still aren’t balanced well, he then asked about how my vacuum lines are plumbed and like many things on this build, certain things trigger something in my pea sized brain and because I insisted on an IAC, my MAP signal only comes off of cylinders 2&5 because the IAC uses the other 4.

So today, I did a temp plumbing re route so MAP is seeing all 6 cylinders and the IAC was disconnected. The car wouldn’t idle worth a darn and was ugly rich, but I was able to use the gas pedal as well as a few tweak of the enrichment settings to keep it running until it warmed up slightly.

It drove pretty well with minimal popping, but it was fairly rich because of seeing all 6 lines made it see other sections of the VE table.

[rwest]

I really want an IAC in my system, anyone know a better way to plumb one in? I suppose that’s the reason that the high end systems use a common plenum on top of the ITBS?

Or I suppose I need a stepper on the butterfly’s to slightly open them at cold idle?

[Showdown]

Rutager,

A few things:

1.) listen to Jamie- her really understands the nuance of these setups.

2.) Your ITBs probably aren't balanced well enough and that's going to kill anything you do so that should be the priority.

3.) I had som e pulsing noise with my signal initially, then I ran each bank of the ITBs to their own manifold (modified fuel rail) and then each of those to another common manifold and all of the noise went away and yielded a consistent 44kpa at idle.

4.) A large manifold (with 9 ports: 6 for the ITBs, one for the ECU, one for the brake booster and one for the IAC) would be ideal for plumbing an IAC. That was the approach I was going to take until I decided on a hand throttle which has been ridiculously simple to install and operate. It also has the added bonus of being a poor man's cruise control

I sent you an email too