My 964 and the market overall?

[mbintx]

OP here. Thanks for your comments and thoughts.

[Cobalt]

Originally Posted by Matt Monson

So... I don't follow 964, but did peek at the Excellence guide from last month when this thread started. depending on spec, it says most models are a low of 25-30 and a high of 50-60. You guys all seem to be calling 50k around the median price on these cars. Is Excellence really that far off on market values?

I am surprised you use those numbers as a guide they are as inaccurate as Hagerty's valuations on these cars. If you can find any 964 coupe or 964 for $25k buy it. The engines and tranny alone needing work will sell for more. As specialtyoneinc said a sorted car starts at $60k and that is still a car that has some needs.

BTW I know a number of the cars that sold on BaT and even the nice ones have needs usually costing another $10k or more to sort out. The bad ones have cost their owners double their buy in by now and we are approaching 6 figures on some of those.

[Matt Monson]

Originally Posted by Cobalt

I am surprised you use those numbers as a guide they are as inaccurate as Hagerty's valuations on these cars. If you can find any 964 coupe or 964 for $25k buy it. The engines and tranny alone needing work will sell for more. As specialtyoneinc said a sorted car starts at $60k and that is still a car that has some needs.

BTW I know a number of the cars that sold on BaT and even the nice ones have needs usually costing another $10k or more to sort out. The bad ones have cost their owners double their buy in by now and we are approaching 6 figures on some of those.

Anthony, I’m not using those numbers for anything. I looked at them out of curiosity because of all the 964 discussion going on here and asked the group for their opinion on them because they didn’t jibe with what people were saying...

[Cobalt]

Sorry sometimes all these threads meld into each other. Yes ignore the valuations. A 964 will set you back between $60-80k if you buy it for $40k it will cost you $40k over time to fix the issues if you buy it for $60k maybe $10-20k and for $70k and above it should be a solid car with only minor needs. Low mileage and pristine examples are seeing 6 figures with a few well into 6 figures. RSA's can bring around $80-90k needing work and were ex track rats nice ones into low 6 figures.

I help people all the time looking for a nice example which is becoming next to impossible to do unless you are willing to pay up. Most settle knowing they will need to budget time and money into them. I always suggest mechanical first cosmetics second but some want clean paint and will refresh the rest to their liking. There isn't much the 964 platform can't do with enough $$$

[wgwollet]

Well the wheels are a major turnoff to me but no big deal. Put the D95 wheels back, kinda old leaking oil at 54,000
Is the mileage documented?
To me the 89 C4 is not the best year or model of 964, but still ok, personally I would never own another C4 964...I had a 1990 C4 White/Black but fought the 4 WD features, not needed in these cars, so that’s a factor, get it stock, good color, start at $55, so get $50, but who knows the market is really hard to figure now.

[pmax]

Originally Posted by Cobalt

I am surprised you use those numbers as a guide they are as inaccurate as Hagerty's valuations on these cars.

Whoa, claiming the other 964 market experts are wrong and you aren't is a tad overboard.

If you can find any 964 coupe or 964 for $25k buy it.
The engines and tranny alone needing work will sell for more. As specialtyoneinc said a sorted car starts at $60k and that is still a car that has some needs.

BTW I know a number of the cars that sold on BaT and even the nice ones have needs usually costing another $10k or more to sort out. The bad ones have cost their owners double their buy in by now and we are approaching 6 figures on some of those.

That's beginning to sound like 930xxx, common affliction.

[Cobalt]

I follow the market very closely. Helped many buy and sell these over the past several years. The excellence and Hagerty valuations have never come close to actual market pricing.

Hagerty has no listing for a 94 turbo only 93 (?) and claim they are selling for the same price as a 92 or 91 3.3l. The last few 3.6’s in pristine condition sold for around $310k and 3.3’s for around $175k. I’d say that says it all but I can show the same inaccuracies for many other low production Porsche’s. A #1 1993 964 for $77k isn’t happening and a #4 fair condition for & $25k lol. I’ll take them all. They also show no valuation for 89 and group 90-93 no 94 all the same. There is a clear divide for the later cars equal conditions with the 92-94’s bringing more.

I sold my 914 2.0 in 2003 for $9500 excellence said it was a high of $4500 . I can go on and on

[dwelle]

Originally Posted by pmax

That's beginning to sound like 930xxx, common affliction.

how the hell you figure?! that's absurd, nobody sounds like 930XXX...

[pmax]

Originally Posted by Cobalt

I follow the market very closely. Helped many buy and sell these over the past several years. The excellence and Hagerty valuations have never come close to actual market pricing.

I find Hagerty valuations are accurate for the 3.2 and others.

Hagerty has no listing for a 94 turbo only 93 (?) and claim they are selling for the same price as a 92 or 91 3.3l. The last few 3.6’s in pristine condition sold for around $310k and 3.3’s for around $175k. I’d say that says it all but I can show the same inaccuracies for many other low production Porsche’s. A #1 1993 964 for $77k isn’t happening and a #4 fair condition for & $25k lol. I’ll take them all. They also show no valuation for 89 and group 90-93 no 94 all the same. There is a clear divide for the later cars equal conditions with the 92-94’s bringing more.

I sold my 914 2.0 in 2003 for $9500 excellence said it was a high of $4500 . I can go on and on

The valuations from Hagerty are average for each category so they don't seem inconsistent with the examples you are quoting. $77K for the #1 is just the midpoint value of those cars. $25K for a #4 is believable, I see close to that even on BAT albeit for cabs but low mileage though.

[pmax]

Originally Posted by dwelle

how the hell you figure?! that's absurd, nobody sounds like 930XXX...

I said beginning to sound like. It starts with claiming those lower valued cars are really not as nice as they appear or must be flawed !

[Cobalt]

I am specifically talking their valuation for coupes for this discussion. $25k 964's coupes don't exist. Singer has helped with that. That is the current market for an engine and transaxle. Coupes needing full restorations start at $35k if you can find one and they go fast or will cost too much to fix. If it is a #1 and it is the midpoint you are proving my point. #1 are pristine perfect cars and those are well into the 6 figures. They are wrong and the BaT cars that have sold in the $55k range i know many of and have seen first hand. Nothing but lies and bad cars needing many $10's of thousands in repairs and that is before you address the poor paint and standard 25 year old car issues. I can show you case & point on multiple cars that sell for far more and are pure junk.

The turbo valuations are all messed up. Follow their valuations and you will be searching for a very very long time. If you buy a good or fair price car you will sink double the buy in before you know it maybe triple. Interestingly their 3.3l 964 turbo pricing is way too high and for the 3.6 way too low.

You can't tell me their numbers are worth the paper printed on so to speak.

[Alan A]

Well based on the black one I just saw (again) on Rennlist top of the market is less than 320.
Not sure what that means other than that seems like a ****-ton of money for a 964.

[Cobalt]

Originally Posted by Alan A

Well based on the black one I just saw (again) on Rennlist top of the market is less than 320.
Not sure what that means other than that seems like a ****-ton of money for a 964.

Why do you say that? He is holding out for $320k which he will get eventually. It is a narrow market and as you said a -ton of money . It takes time to sell a car like that. I can point out several issues that makes this car a #2 condition car and is not top of the market.

I can show you several other examples that sold for $320k or close within the past 6 months although the owners wouldn't appreciate it. These are not the very top of the market cars either. The market for a car in its condition is between $300k and $320k if you use Hagerty's valuation for the car on rennlist it would be considered a #2 condition car valued around $219k. That isn't going to happen not with the recent sales of higher mileage turbos in the $310/320k range.

[Alan A]

Originally Posted by Cobalt

Why do you say that? He is holding out for $320k which he will get eventually. It is a narrow market and as you said a -ton of money . It takes time to sell a car like that. I can point out several issues that makes this car a #2 condition car and is not top of the market.

I can show you several other examples that sold for $320k or close within the past 6 months although the owners wouldn't appreciate it. These are not the very top of the market cars either. The market for a car in its condition is between $300k and $320k if you use Hagerty's valuation for the car on rennlist it would be considered a #2 condition car valued around $219k. That isn't going to happen not with the recent sales of higher mileage turbos in the $310/320k range.

I said it because it was the most expensive one I’d seen advertised pretty much ever and he has reduced the price. It’s not a market I follow, so if you say there are multiples selling there or higher I believe you - I’m just surprised they fetch so much.