Coupe M/T RWD non-Turbo 964 vs. 993 average/daily condition

DaBears · 10-05-2017, 09:49 AM

It's been a while since I've been 911 shopping. 5 years ago I went w/ a 997 C4S and recently sold it for a boring Audi Q5. It's nice having a more practical DD for the first time in many years but I really miss the Porsche. I've been thinking about 964 for a nice day driver when I don't need to haul people/stuff around. I have an e46 "Lemons" track car so I don't need to use the 911 to scratch that itch.

What I'm having a hard time finding are normal/average manual transmission RWD coupes. 100K+ miles doesn't scare me with the service docs to back it up. It seems like the vast majority of 964s listed are C4s, Turbos, cabrios, and Targas. The ones that are listed either are priced at the very top of the market (low miles, RS, or just overly optimistic) or end up being Tip cars.

What's also surprising (at least to me) is that I'm finding plenty of 993s that match my search criteria for decent prices (along with plenty at very optimistic prices). I know Porsche prices have softened the last year but I thought 993s were still more desirable for most buyers.

I doesn't seem like a driver quality 964 M/T C2 coupe should a hard to find.

Am I missing something in the market or looking the wrong places?

Matt Monson · 10-05-2017, 11:43 AM

I've noticed the same thing in the last year or two. I have no idea why anyone would put a 964 C2 above a 993 C2. The 993 is a better car. For same money I would buy the 993.

specialtyoneinc · 01:52 PM

Supply & demand, last of the original 911 design/1st with coil overs makes them pretty sought after. They also made a bunch more 993 C2 Coupes compared to the 964 C2 Coupes. The 964 was considered the ugly stepchild of the 911 range for awhile so many were neglected over the years.

As for the drive the 964 has a little more classic/raw 911 feel than the 993 but are quite similar (both 3.6L, same transmission feel, interior layout etc...)

If your looking for a sorted/clean C2 Coupe (even with 100k miles) expect to pay over $50k + these days. Ones that will need some sorting but are clean you might be able to find in the $40s.

DaBears · 10-05-2017, 03:51 PM

Anybody have production #s of C2 Coupes for 964 and 993?

I have found some 993s in the low 40s that are "good enough" for what I'm looking for BTW. I would have thought a 964 could be had at a discount to 993s but can hardly find any listed for sale.

KNS · 10-05-2017, 06:15 PM

As mentioned, there are simply more 993s than there are 964s (but not that many of each altogether). I was looking for a C2 coupe with a manual trans in either a 964 or 993 a few years back, like you. I like the 964 a bit better but found a nice 95 993 that fit the bill and bought it right before prices went nuts. It is a wonderful car and a pleasure to drive.

Other than the air cooled charm of the earlier cars, what makes you not want another 997?

gearby · 10-05-2017, 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaBears

Anybody have production #s of C2 Coupes for 964 and 993?

I have found some 993s in the low 40s that are "good enough" for what I'm looking for BTW. I would have thought a 964 could be had at a discount to 993s but can hardly find any listed for sale.

63,762 -964s made from 89 to 94. 5.5 years production as only the Carrera 4 was built in 1989. A little over twelve thousand per year. I don't have a breakdown of the particular models.

68,881 -993's made from 95 to 98. 4 years of production averaging 17,220 per year.

So there were close to the same amount total but many less per year made. I remember when the 964 came out. They weren't very well received. Nobody who worked in the shop I worked in liked them. I have driven virtually every model up through the 964 and I didn't even like driving them. Although I never drove a Carrera 2 only Carrera 4's. Too heavy that gave me a very detached feeling from the previous models. Funny how everybody's perceptions are different. My favorite car up to that point was a 1984 Carrera.

touringteg · 10-05-2017, 06:37 PM

It has been this way for years. 964 C2 manuals are in high demand in any condition. They sell fast. There are usually C4's available. It seems there are always 993 C2 on the market. A lot of them have been well preserved. (Except ones that have a tree growing through the engine bay.)

I drove a 964 C2 manual then bought a 993 shortly after.

The 964 has the classic lines and more of a raw feel. I liked seeing the headlight humps while driving the 964. The 993 has better sound insulation and is more comfortable IMO.

gearby · 10-05-2017, 08:33 PM

Found the different 964 production numbers between the Carrera 2 and Carrera 4. It is a bit surprising and not what the market would indicate but Carrera 2's are much more abundant.
Carrera 2 - 34,398
Carrera 4 - 20,395

gearby · 10-05-2017, 09:04 PM

There are three of them on hemmings.com. Guess what your color choices are? Red, silver, and black. Shocker.

christiandk · christiandk's Garage

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-964-993-technical-forum/399143-964-vs-993-systems-analysis.html

Id take the 964 over the 993 any day. Why? Because I am a simple conservative guy.

christiandk · christiandk's Garage

Quote:

Originally Posted by gearby

Found the different 964 production numbers between the Carrera 2 and Carrera 4. It is a bit surprising and not what the market would indicate but Carrera 2's are much more abundant.
Carrera 2 - 34,398
Carrera 4 - 20,395

Do where are the last 8000 cars vs the post above?

I am shocked by those numbers - much higher rhan I expected. Now I have to go find my own litterature to check.

SalParadise · 10-06-2017, 04:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by specialtyoneinc

Supply & demand, last of the original 911 design/1st with coil overs makes them pretty sought after. They also made a bunch more 993 C2 Coupes compared to the 964 C2 Coupes. The 964 was considered the ugly stepchild of the 911 range for awhile so many were neglected over the years.

As for the drive the 964 has a little more classic/raw 911 feel than the 993 but are quite similar (both 3.6L, same transmission feel, interior layout etc...)

If your looking for a sorted/clean C2 Coupe (even with 100k miles) expect to pay over $50k + these days. Ones that will need some sorting but are clean you might be able to find in the $40s.

The 964 is not even close to being the last of the original design. It's not the original design at all. Those were are are 1989 G50s.

Like Matt said, the 993 is a much better car. It just is. The years the 964 was cobbled together at the factory were very dark years for Porsche. I know, I visited there in December of 1992.

The 964 was nothing but a test bed mule that had a lot more polishing to go. Many new regulations required the 911 to go the 964 route - and they (Porsche) had no money in the early 1990s to do anything, much less anything right. People didn't have the money for 911s like they did in the '80s. Heck, Porsche couldn't even get their act together in sealing up the engine, which was very unusual for them.

I would go 993 all the way. It's what the 964 should have been, and would have been if the world was going right.

gearby · 04:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by christiandk

Do where are the last 8000 cars vs the post above?

I am shocked by those numbers - much higher rhan I expected. Now I have to go find my own litterature to check.

The previous post also included the production numbers for:
964 turbo 3.3- 3,660
964 turbo 3.6- 1,437
964 Carrera RS 3.6 coupe- 2,282
I left them out of my second post because they weren't really relevant to the discussion. Hence the discrepancy between my two posts. Here is the link and it gives a complete breakdown between the Targa and the Cabrio models too.
https://rennlist.com/forums/964-forum/791692-rhd-964-production-numbers.html

christiandk · christiandk's Garage

Quote:

Originally Posted by gearby

The previous post also included the production numbers for:
964 turbo 3.3- 3,660
964 turbo 3.6- 1,437
964 Carrera RS 3.6 coupe- 2,282
I left them out of my second post because they weren't really relevant to the discussion. Hence the discrepancy between my two posts. Here is the link and it gives a complete breakdown between the Targa and the Cabrio models too.
https://rennlist.com/forums/964-forum/791692-rhd-964-production-numbers.html

Thanks Gear!

DaBears · 10-06-2017, 05:00 AM

I don't want another 997 to fill this role - mostly b/c I don't want to watch the depreciation on a car I don't really need and will only put a few thousand miles on a year. A 964/993 bought well isn't likely to lose much value at this point.

I generally prefer the older cars as well - both driving and maintaining. The 1990s is still relatively simple compared to today and not that old compared to some of the other cars in my fleet so it's a good compromise.

I don't have my heart set on a 964 - just figured it was a good blend of classic "ish" and modern "ish". If the money is equal the 993 is the obvious choice but if a 964 was noticeably cheaper that would be just fine for my needs. Just surprised the lack of 964s on the market.

christiandk · christiandk's Garage

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaBears

I don't want another 997 to fill this role - mostly b/c I don't want to watch the depreciation on a car I don't really need and will only put a few thousand miles on a year. A 964/993 bought well isn't likely to lose much value at this point.

I generally prefer the older cars as well - both driving and maintaining. The 1990s is still relatively simple compared to today and not that old compared to some of the other cars in my fleet so it's a good compromise.

I don't have my heart set on a 964 - just figured it was a good blend of classic "ish" and modern "ish". If the money is equal the 993 is the obvious choice but if a 964 was noticeably cheaper that would be just fine for my needs. Just surprised the lack of 964s on the market.

Why is a 993 the obvious choice?