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My Wife gave me 5G's last night.

Here we go... Just got 5 grand to update the motor..

1987 930 turbo, stock with 3dlz turbo. 1 bar spring and Fabspeed Muffler.

What do I need to get a 100+ hp More. I'm am probably around 310 Now.

K27 what model?

Intercooler what make and model?

Headers? Which ones...I saw a thread a while back about cracking?

Recommendations anyone!

Thanks

Bob
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Old 07-27-2007, 07:06 AM
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ssi heat exchangers/headers are the best quality in this case.

gt35r turbo

ditch the fabspeed muffler and find a flow throughdesign
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Current project 73 914-6 Gt project rusteration 2.4
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Old 07-27-2007, 07:08 AM
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Ben,
What type of HP improvements do you think I would see with your recommendations?

What do you think those items will cost? roughly?

Thanks for your response

Bob
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Old 07-27-2007, 07:13 AM
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ssi heat exchangers/headers are the best quality in this case. $2000 equal length and worth approx 20 hp increase (here say at this point but I love them on my car)

gt35r turbo (1000 bucks approx) huge potential for hp increase but better drivability

ditch the fabspeed muffler and find a flow throughdesign (700 bucks)= to about 12ish hp


then go for the adjustable WUR from brian leask not sure on cost but more adjustablity and more hp potential

IC's are very overpriced but contact bell intercoolers they can fab one up for about 1100 bucks that will bolt on not that garbage from B&B that require extensive mods
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Current project 73 914-6 Gt project rusteration 2.4
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Old 07-27-2007, 07:24 AM
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I don't think SSIs are made for late model turbos, at least I didn't see one on our host's order page made for a 930. I love mine and they are good for about 20 hp, especially early cars.
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Old 07-27-2007, 07:49 AM
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Bob, it all depends what you want. If you just want more straight line speed, go for a K27, full bay intercooler, zork tube, and maybe a heavier boost spring. If you want better handling, go for an alignement and corner balance, stiffer sway bars, polybronze bushings. Whatever you do, I'd say getting another oil cooler would be at the top of my list.
Andy
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'75 911S Silver Anniversary #164(Formerly JTO's)
Rebuilt 2.7 with full ARP, 9:1 CR.
SSI, GHL, ER polybronze bushings, finned oil lines.
Lowered and corner balanced. CIS retired, now PMOs!
'65 912 slate gray sunroof (driving project)
Old 07-27-2007, 07:58 AM
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First off, update your cams to SC or 964 grinds. Follow that with a Garrett gt35 turbocharger, headers (need heat?), then a Bell IC and Tial 46mm wategate. I'm not a big fan of 1bar boost springs without twin plugging the heads/ignition, but that may go beyond your 5K budget.
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Old 07-27-2007, 08:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ael911 View Post
I don't think SSIs are made for late model turbos, at least I didn't see one on our host's order page made for a 930. I love mine and they are good for about 20 hp, especially early cars.

They do but they are not a complete kit.. I am working on that right now
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Old 07-27-2007, 08:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WERK-I View Post
First off, update your cams to SC or 964 grinds. Follow that with a Garrett gt35 turbocharger, headers (need heat?), then a Bell IC and Tial 46mm wategate. I'm not a big fan of 1bar boost springs without twin plugging the heads/ignition, but that may go beyond your 5K budget.
Wouldn't switching cams eat your whole 5 grand if you had a shop do it? Doesn't that require a top end rebuild, which leads to replacing all kinds of stuff while you are in there? Sounds expensive to me, although I am not entirely sure of how expensive.

Robert, if you want to stay on a tight budget like 5 grand and do all kinds of things to gain horsepower you are going to have to be pretty stingy. Headers, turbo and intercooler are going to eat your five grand just in parts, and then you will want to install it and throw in a 1 bar spring, which most people run fine without twin plug ignition, provided your cylinder rings are in good shape and you get the aforementioned IC, and your CIS is tuned absolutely right with no exceptions....

For headers, ssi or B+B or ghl are all 2 grand. Vertex makes a sort of imitation of the B+B style for much less money, although I don't know if they offer heat exchangers. I can't vouch for them, you would have to do your own legwork on that, which is part of being stingy and getting bang for your buck. I would have bought SSI headers but they require modding and welding to fit a 930. At least they did when I checked. Not sure if they have heat exchangers. Although some people are really high on the cheap OBX headers, I have heard that they are not only inconsistent in quality but also have bad welding which is covered up by a layer of proper appearance welding. I can't verify that, and don't really want to get into it again about those headers because some people really like them and I have brand new B+Bs, so it ain't my battle...

For turbo, you really don't have to switch to a garrett style if you don't want, which requires modding. Headers and a high flow, modern K27 is another option and very good although people love to argue back and forth about this. I would go with the cheaper solution out of the two alternatives, again that is your legwork. K27 potentially requires a little modding, but I think that the headers all hook right up to it.

An intercooler is a must have item, especially if you put in a 1 bar spring. You may want to see how much boost you are getting with new headers before increasing spring rating, because headers often create so much more airflow on their own that they overboost your wastegate and give you more boost anyway.

You have spent 5 grand right there, and never mind that you need your air fuel ratio tuned again with ANY of the above mods except the intercooler.

A zork pipe can be added for $190 from Rarly. But that will 'bother' you the same way your Fabspeed 'bothers' you now. It will have some performance benefits, however, even if they are minor, it would be icing on the cake if you are prepared to run a open exhaust. Your Fabspeed is pretty darn close to being wide open.
Old 07-27-2007, 08:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DDDD View Post
Wouldn't switching cams eat your whole 5 grand if you had a shop do it? Doesn't that require a top end rebuild, which leads to replacing all kinds of stuff while you are in there? Sounds expensive to me, although I am not entirely sure of how expensive.
My thoughts exactly! Regrinds will run a minimum of roughly $350... Springs $550, upper end gasket set.. $250, R &R an engine is $1, 200- $1,500..

If you're pulling the top-end apart to do cams, a competent shop is going to suggest a valve job $350.. may as well spring for a little port & polish $..? Lets check those studs while we're in here.. hmm how about Carrera tensioner upgrade.. misc hoses, clamps , hardware, seals, senders etc... you get the idea!

Oh but hey.. kudos on for the nice/understanding wife!!!


Paul
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Old 07-27-2007, 09:36 AM
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DDDD,

I looked at the Garrett turbo, Ben recommended and it is ordered in many configurations. I dont know which one is correct and have had an eye on a K27. But which one? Stephan Kaspar recommended one a while back that I was going to buy but I lost my second gear synchro and had to rebuild my tranny. So now I have a little money again. I wanted to upgrade the turbo headers and IC. If I went K27 what type would you recommend. HFS or S or 7200. Also Bell IC's are really good? I havn't heard of them being recommended by Craig, Brian or any other person.

BTW my car has a 1 bar spring in it now. What do you think I will get HP wise from these mods?

Thanks

Bob
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Old 07-27-2007, 09:49 AM
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Paul,

Thanks, she is sweet. I think she conceded and gave me the money to stop my whining! I have my children saying K27 daily and I think she is tired of me asking., ask ael911, he is my neighbor and buddy and he thinks my car is fast enough. He thinks I should spend the moola on the suspension. He has a awesome 1975 911s with some suspension work and he beats me in the curves when we road romp. Although I tell him that I am testicularly challenged and not ready to die. My car handles OK ..I just dont push it. Anyway- before I bought my 87 turbo, I test drove one that was for sale at a Mitsubishi dealer in Costa Mesa, California. Attached a picture of it. This thing was fricken fast. Scary kind of fast. Like it could kill you if your not on top of it.

I think it had a K27, Kokyn IC and headers. What else? Look at the pictures.

Its been my goal to get close to that HP. It had an intense surge after 2700 RPMs. My car doesnt wake up until 3200 then pulls good but not like a catapult from a carrier like that one.

What K27 would you guys recommend. Will this combo get me 75-100 HP?

Thanks Bob
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Old 07-27-2007, 10:14 AM
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I've upgraded to:

Konklen IC, K27-7200, B&B Headers, Magnaflow Exhaust, 964 cams, 1 bar spring, shorten 2nd, 3rd, and 4th gearsets and top-end rebuild at 120k miles. now have 375 RWHP, 365 TQ.

That's plenty for this street machine. More power, better sound, more responsive... I'm very happy with that (so far!)

Next major investment is suspension. Hope my wife gives me $5k.
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Old 07-27-2007, 10:40 AM
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Wink

Bob, got your email, I will stop by your pad on my way home tonight. We can put a list of goodies together for you over some brew...
Andy
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'75 911S Silver Anniversary #164(Formerly JTO's)
Rebuilt 2.7 with full ARP, 9:1 CR.
SSI, GHL, ER polybronze bushings, finned oil lines.
Lowered and corner balanced. CIS retired, now PMOs!
'65 912 slate gray sunroof (driving project)
Old 07-27-2007, 02:31 PM
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Bob,

I think I remember seeing that car for sale... it looks like its had a few things done to it. From the pics what you've stated looks correct.. also has somebody's "free-flow" air filter installed.

My car has a K27 Hybrid... and I've been told by some on this board that it's old technology etc... it may be, but the fact is it starts spooling just under 2800 rpm, and keeps puffing through 7k. I've been crusing at cruising 50-60 MPh in 3rd... nail it and light the tires... talk about getting a woody! I may eventually try the Garrett gt35 as I have a spare motor that I'm buildoing for EFI and may mount-up the Garrett with the current set-up.

I'd say do the headers and exhaust...first to get some flow. Front mounted cooler.. at least you'll have that out of the way. Maybe then an IC until you figure out which Turbo you want to use. There are many opinions on what's best etc... which makes deciding that much harder.

Good Luck!

Paul
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Old 07-27-2007, 02:51 PM
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Here is the deal on the headers. there just is not a good solution out there they all crack. I have had my ssis on for 6 months with great sucess. They are made of 321 and 347 and are wonderfully built. What I am doing is completing the kits from ssi so that they will be bolt on solutions and will outlast anything out there currently. many guys love them and I do..

as to the gt35 pm one of the guys on the forum running them infact onguys screen name is gt-35r I believe.

As to the KKK turbo's I just think there are better options. Greg@tialsport.com is a major p-car guy and can set you up perfectly. he is the owner so a bit hard to get ahold of but he can help
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Old 07-27-2007, 03:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robert_snyder View Post
DDDD,

I looked at the Garrett turbo, Ben recommended and it is ordered in many configurations. I dont know which one is correct and have had an eye on a K27. But which one? Stephan Kaspar recommended one a while back that I was going to buy but I lost my second gear synchro and had to rebuild my tranny. So now I have a little money again. I wanted to upgrade the turbo headers and IC. If I went K27 what type would you recommend. HFS or S or 7200. Also Bell IC's are really good? I havn't heard of them being recommended by Craig, Brian or any other person.

BTW my car has a 1 bar spring in it now. What do you think I will get HP wise from these mods?

Thanks

Bob
I do not have a clear favorite amoung turbos, but I think that a lot of this Garrett versus K27 is nothing but hot air. Both turbos as built in 2007 are very modern and very good. Kaspar told me the other day that if Garrett was a better way to go, he would build Garrett turbos, simple as that.....Ben likes Garretts. All I know is that nobody seems to have a shred of real same day, same car, back to back dyno testing of the best from each style to prove which is better. I have heard from a racer at this forum that in his GT2, the Shaft K27 type turbo built for him by Tial was better than the Garrett/ball bearing styles he ran, including one also built by Tial.

I don't know, and I honestly think that they both work great, and I don't believe it when people accuse the K-27 as being old and the Garrett of being new. Both have internals which are constantly being upgraded by tuners, and both work. I would get the one that you can buy and INSTALL correctly the cheapest, personally.

As far as intercoolers, I called Bell today and they said that all intercoolers are using a very standard bar and plate technology these days and they all should have very similiar efficiencies. They told me that you want a 3" thickness to minimize pressure loss and you want dimensions of around 28" by 10" for 500 hp or less. You can go smaller, like a half bay size, if you want 400 hp or less and won't be rebuilding in the future for higher horsepower. You don't want a bigger IC then needed, because it won't be more efficient unless you are using air through the whole unit, and not just part capacity. They basically said that there is really no way to make one well built bar and plate design much better than the next one, so why spend 4 grand on a bar and plate intercooler just because it has a fancy name on it.

Going super fast has a really good price on an intercooler that Albert, the owner, designed the dimensions of, but he has extremeintercoolers.com build for him. That is like $900 for a 27x11x3, and may be the best deal out there. I will probably get one of those if I don't just make a custom Bell unit. Bell only makes custom units, but they cost about $1150, or maybe less if you only want a smaller one for 400 hp. Bell has a good website. ARE.com has a great website for reading up on intercooler technology as well.

I think you will get 30 hp from headers, maybe 10 from a zork, and probably another decent chunk from a really good turbo combined with a 1 bar spring and PROPER AFR tuning. ICs will help you get the hp that is already there, but won't increase it. It will keep you from killing your engine. You aren't going to get a 100 hp, and you won't need it to feel a big difference in your car.
Old 07-27-2007, 04:21 PM
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Quote:
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Here is the deal on the headers. there just is not a good solution out there they all crack.
This is not true. Mine haven't cracked. I haven't heard of Marko Manzinis or Bob Holcolm's cracking either.

But they will all cost you more than the cheap Chineezzze crap that is out there.
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Old 07-27-2007, 04:45 PM
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DDDD and evertbody....

Thank You! I talked to Stephan Kaspar today and I'm thinking of his K-27S and a header system he has. For the intercooler he said B&B. I didnt order that stuff yet because I realized I needed to move money from my savings first. Then got stuck in a meeting at work. Well I will try him tomorrow.

Thanks for all the good info and your time...

Bob
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Old 07-27-2007, 04:49 PM
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Do some searches on that B+B intercooler, some people have complained bitterly about the set up involved with it recently. It won't hurt to do your homework, because you can get a couple other good intercoolers. I am not sure what goes into setting it up in your particular car, but you are better off knowing beforehand.....

Let us know how it goes.
Old 07-27-2007, 08:34 PM
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