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930 value and values (Just a RANT)...

Come on guys.

I've just read the post 'looked at a 930 yesterday...confused'

Financial crises or not, Porsche 930's are genuine supercars. Works of art to some and examples of the ultimate in automotive engineering for its time to others. They represented the very best that Porsche could offer at the time. When introduced the 930 elevated Porsches status from sports to supercar manufacturer. Racing drivers, royalty and the rich and famous flocked to buy one. I caught a glimse of one in 1977 at age 7 and fell in love. I saved and saved and eventually could afford the Athena poster which took pride of place on my bedroom wall amongst the many press clippings which raved about the awesome 930 Turbo. As bedroom art goes, this car can surely be second only to the famous tennis girl scratching her behind.
In terms of useable real world performance and reliability, it showed the World how it should be done and taught the Italians especially, that it takes more than just reprinting a brochure with higher figures to keep ahead. Not that it makes much difference but the 930 was remember deemed the fastest production car in the world for a time and remained, without any major changes, the car all other supercars were judged against for most of its fifteen year production span.
In fact, Porsches glorious racing and engineering reputation, the reputation which draws all owners together into a proud family, the reputation that backs up your bar room arguments against Ferrari etc. and the reputation that causes people you've never met to come up to you and start conversations, wouldn't be half what it is today without the 930, the 930 engine or the 934's and 935's. Their long term consistency solidified that reputation where even today with no major racing program, people still revere our marque. British manufacturer Lotus won the World F1 championship on several occasions but today many just laugh and say Lots Of Trouble Usually Serious when that marque is mentioned.
So why are 930's now so overlooked and undervalued against other exotica of the era and especially against the 2.4S's and 2.7RS's of this world. Now I know these are nice cars but, the RS's ability aside, its sheer rarity and years of magazines plagiarizing each others articles dictating to the uninformed public what is best, coupled with the interests of the influential owners in the classic car heirachy with much money invested, have ensured the reputation and high value of RS's until gasoline engines are no more. Any good 2.4 is now getting rarer. The 'S' especially, and is now looked upon as the next best thing to an RS. Add to this its historic racing eligability and the prices are going through the roof.
You'll struggle to find a good one here in the U.K. for less than £40,000 if not £50,000 ($57,000/$71,000U.S). It's not even worth mentioning the prices of RS's as they are on another level all together.
Why is it then that many 930 owners seem almost apologetic if not angered by a price that appears high. Take a 3.2 Carrera, change the bumpers/fenders, tweek the suspension a bit, wack on a duck tail and Carrera RS decal down the side and you can sell it here in the U.K. for £40,000 ($57,000). Why can't a low milage, clean and tidy genuine 930 be for sale at $60,000. Are we the Lepor of the marque? The cars that the 930 nailed when it was around haven't magicaly got any better, yet an Aston V8 is around the £100,000 mark and climbing. The Italians were and still are made of monkey metal. I recently had a chance to see a 550 Maranelo taken to pieces and couldn't believe the shabby paint job, the state of the engine castings or the poor quality of the interior and Fiat switchgear. My 930 came apart, cleaned up and went back together again ready for another 50000+ miles but, it didn't really need any of the work. Three or four broken head studs but still running, oh and while it's apart lets just change the valve guides to be safe and oh maybe tweek it a bit and add 50% more power. You know how it goes. All this and the car is almost thirty years old. Thats quality.
British magazine Classic and Sports Car recently mentioned Lamborghini prices with suggestions on current values. They were inundated with letters from disgruntled Lambo owners angry at how they dared devalue their cherished classics to the point where they had to take it all back in an editorial and run another feature with updated values. Did you know that an early LP400 Countach is now at least £200,000.00 ($280,000.00 US). Even one of the weird winged late 80's ones will set you back around the £80,000.00 mark ($112,000.00 US). Gullwing door gimmic aside they had a square cardboard box as a dashboard, but the Lambo owners love them and jolly well stick together because they have pride and know what they own is a piece of automotive legend. Don't we too?
As for the credit crises, classic car values are on the up. People are investing their money in quality, ability and solid reputation because very few trust banks right now. Their certainly not earning anything in interest thats for sure.
I don't know quite what it is I'm trying to say here. I'm certainly not advocating a situation like that of the late 80's and early 90's. But, if prices are rising why should we be ashamed to benefit a little, after all, we own one of the best cars ever made, and we bought them before we were told to. We've been the ugly duckling for far too long. Lets stick together like the Lambo guys and put our cars in their rightful place in the grand scheme of things. There is more to life than just an RS.
Maybe I should have bought the tennis girl....


As I mentioned, this is just my ranting. I'm probably having a bad day, but they are my opinions for today and certainly not intended to offend anyone, that is if anyone can actually make any sense of them.

Love your cars.

Robert.
Old 03-01-2009, 05:00 PM
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I woulldn't say you were having a bad day; quite the opposite it would seem. Absolutely priceless ranting and spot-on the mark. I wonder if Porsche's had been made in some country other than Germany - in the home of the Lambo or the Ferrari or the Lotus, for example - if the value and prestige of the 930 would be better sustained. I too am somewhat mystified as to why our legendary beauties haven't been elevated to a higher status. It may just be that Porsche assigned a more reasonable price when first introduced, and that price "sticker" is still holding her down. Certainly the engineering, quality, and performance quotients are all there. My guess is that it's just a matter of time and the world will wake up.
But getting past the value issue, at this stage of my life I really don't care because I don't plan on buying another 930 and I don't plan on selling this one. I paid way too much for mine with high miles....but I didn't care and it's still in excellent condition throughout. Properly maintained by previous owners apparently, and certainly by me. I fell in love with these cars in the early 70's (when I was just old enough to drink...good thing I didn't have one then!) but knew that the day would eventually come. I was able to bide my time with British sports cars for well over 20 years (I still have my 1960 MGA), but those cars are meant for a ride in the park, vs. roaring up a twisty canyon at speeds that the MG's tractor engine could never hope to achieve. So, I have the car of my dreams. Yes, I would love to own a Ferrair (for me, either a Dino or a Testarosa...because they fit the period I fell in love with cars). Hell, I would love to just drive a Ferrari or any other exotic, just so I could etch a comparison in my brain against what I know in my heart to be true....that the 930 style and performance can kick some serious ass against all those "other guys". Unfortunately I'm trying to prepare for retirement here (and procurring a 930 was a must-have to see me through to the grave), so adding some other foreign sportscar to my collection of things that run on decomposed dinosaurs will not happen.
I enjoyed your diatribe. Now I'm going down to the garage to lay my hands on my girl....and she doesn't play tennis either, but really knows how to turn me on regardless.
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Old 03-01-2009, 05:43 PM
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Thanks Mark.

It's made my day that at least one person can understand my bemusement at the state of things.
I've owned mine for nearly three years now and haven't driven it once yet. I absolutely love it.
I paid the asking price with no history, the engine out and the gearbox in pieces. A fatal mistake if you listen to anyone fixated with re-sale values. For me it was my heart and gut telling me yes. The chap I bought it off knew who won Le Mans in '71 which was all the history I needed. I knew it was the one instantly. History means very little today, a bit like the M.O.T. test. Know the right people and it'll pass. With something this old you just stand back, decide if you really want one and get ready for the ride. Life's too short to worry about whether the sun roof opens or if the oil was changed in 1981.

I've had some memorable times in an MGB too, just never bought the poster.
Enjoy your car and don't let it go. Mine is staying with me for good.

Thanks.

Robert.
Old 03-01-2009, 07:02 PM
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As a newbie 930 owner I can say that I agree with your statement that these cars get no monetary respect. When I found out what these cars were going for I quick made a trade for a pristine 22k garage queen. And I didn't even get that buyers remorse/sweat on the brow thing after taking ownership. Barring a complete economic meltdown I think these cars are a good deal at the present time and will increase in value in the future.
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Old 03-01-2009, 08:11 PM
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i for one am glad these cars are not in the realm of other super cars as i wouldn't be able to own a 930 and two 911s. a friend of mine has a Ferrari of the 80s vintage and has more invested into one car than i have into all 3 of mine. and the 930 is still faster.

cheers ed
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Old 03-01-2009, 08:42 PM
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Ed I feel the same way. It helps keep the cars in the hands of the 930 lovers.

I "had" a factory 1969 SS-396 Camaro until the values went sky high and some thief wanted it really bad.
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Old 03-01-2009, 10:48 PM
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I agree spot on the map with the comments to the effect of what the 934's and 935's did for the brand. And none of that would have been possible if the 930 wasn't around.

To say its one of the single most significant cars in Porsche's history isn't straying too far from the mark either. The 930 did for the street cars what the 935 did for the racing heritage – and monumental would be putting it lightly.

Concerning resale values - I'd love to see the values of these cars go to where their Italian cousins are, however that would throw ownership far from many of those that own them and enjoy them the way they were meant to be driven and enjoyed. Concerning how many are left that are not modded to the hilt, the value should rise accordingly as more of us enhance the stock form and track accordingly.

Is it possible for showroom stock and perfect examples to go for $60k plus? Sure, and that is money well spent for a car that does not get driven. In the US where prices are significantly lower than the UK, a guy called Sloan sells 'P E R F E C T' examples and the pricing reflects that and gets what he asks for, so there are buyers out there who understand and back it up with the cash, but they’re usually very private. So there are the cars that are worthy of the higher prices and are certainly being sold as such – and if there is an example worthy of it out there it will get its value no matter what economy flux we’re suffering.

The only thing is - 930's are a drivers car, not a "drive on sunday fix monday through saturday, rinse and repeat" experience thus there are fewer low mile, perfect examples that haven't had a complete resto. When most are polishing their paint, putting tire shine on their wheels, the 930 owner is checking the oil temp prior to releasing the right foot on the canyon blast or top speed challenge. When other car owners are taking their rides into the dealership for digital service the 930 owner is rebuilding his/her top end or turbo, replacing suspension pieces, not going for concours points but for more power, less squat, etc.

The 930 owner is the quintessential Alpha male personality, king of the road in most cases even against the new horses. So for the most part the prices reflect that on the open market, but like any performance car that is ultimately used to its true purpose, the value, unless backed by on track victories etc. won't see the high prices that so many of the garage ornaments of the Italian variety do.

I love my car and could give a rat's ass about resale - so keep that in mind while digesting the above. These cars are about speed - handling - rawness - ground shaking - fire breathing passion that can be translated to the pavement through two gargantuanly huge smoking rear tires that so many of our cars wear with the power plant potential to relocate the moon from its orbit. I agree with you 100%, but the moral of the story is the cars are in the hands of those who ought to be driving them.
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Old 03-02-2009, 01:14 AM
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Robert:

I think everybody agrees that 930s are the best value and most hidden treasure in sports car history, period.

I bought at the very peak of the market. Luckily I didn't lose a fortune because 930s are cheap to begin with. I don't feel like I overpaid or underpaid because frankly who cares? I like the car I got and I won't be selling it anytime soon.

I have been tracking 930 sales for two years now and I have not seen a single sale recently for top dollar. All those NA 911s with slapped on RS bumpers are not fetching top dollar either. Nothing is.

The market does what the market does. It is what it is.

If people want to pay more to get a super clean 930, they are getting a great car. If they want to wait and get a 930 from a motivated seller, they are getting a great car.

Last edited by DDDD; 03-02-2009 at 09:26 AM..
Old 03-02-2009, 07:32 AM
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Let's see, Porsche owner:
Probably had to wait to own the car of his/her dreams.
Does some or all of the mechanical work on the car.
Loses sleep over which viscosity oil to use in the Spring.
Not afraid to tweek a little more power out of the car.
Appreciates the engineering that went into the car.
Keeps it clean but doesn't cry when a bird poops on the hood.
Owns a hound or a feisty cat.

Ferrari/Lambo/Aston Martin/Lotus owner:
Daddy bought the car.
Would not dream of ever doing a tune up.
Does not know where the oil drain plug is located.
Afraid of the cars power potential.
Likes the color of the paint, not sure about suspension loading.
Fanatic about keeping it clean and rarely drives the car.
Owns a poodle or a parakeet.

Am I close?

These are all just cars and no car has any value until someone purchases it and therefore assigns value to it. Porsche owners are pragmatic, sensible people. We understand what the car was designed to do and we appreciate that it does it very well. The people who own other exotic cars can trade them back and forth to each other for unGodly sums, who cares.

I just wish I could find a broker who would let me put my Porsche into my IRA...

Mark
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Old 03-02-2009, 10:26 AM
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Robert,

You're preaching to the choir here. Most of us who frequent this forum are addicted to (or obsessed with, your choice) our cars. I imagine the words "over my dead body" come to many of our minds at even the slightest mention of parting with our toys.

I think 60k is a lot of dough to spend on a car...any car for that matter. I would expect a 930 at 60k to be damn near perfect. Of course, talk to me in another couple years and I'll probably have 60k into mine Probably won't be perfect either

I have some interest in the market value of my car, but I'm not going to freak out as prices go up or down. As others have said already, the market will do what it does. Its not a speculative investment. I bought the car to drive and enjoy. I bought a car that wasn't a perfect garage queen so that I could happily mod it and put miles on it and park it in the shopping center lot without being a stress case.
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Old 03-02-2009, 11:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucittm View Post
Let's see, Porsche owner:
Probably had to wait to own the car of his/her dreams.
Does some or all of the mechanical work on the car.
Loses sleep over which viscosity oil to use in the Spring.
Not afraid to tweek a little more power out of the car.
Appreciates the engineering that went into the car.
Keeps it clean but doesn't cry when a bird poops on the hood.
Owns a hound or a feisty cat.

Ferrari/Lambo/Aston Martin/Lotus owner:
Daddy bought the car.
Would not dream of ever doing a tune up.
Does not know where the oil drain plug is located.
Afraid of the cars power potential.
Likes the color of the paint, not sure about suspension loading.
Fanatic about keeping it clean and rarely drives the car.
Owns a poodle or a parakeet.

Am I close?

These are all just cars and no car has any value until someone purchases it and therefore assigns value to it. Porsche owners are pragmatic, sensible people. We understand what the car was designed to do and we appreciate that it does it very well. The people who own other exotic cars can trade them back and forth to each other for unGodly sums, who cares.

I just wish I could find a broker who would let me put my Porsche into my IRA...

Mark
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Old 03-02-2009, 12:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VonHanstein View Post
Thanks Mark.

It's made my day that at least one person can understand my bemusement at the state of things.
I've owned mine for nearly three years now and haven't driven it once yet. I absolutely love it.
I paid the asking price with no history, the engine out and the gearbox in pieces. A fatal mistake if you listen to anyone fixated with re-sale values. For me it was my heart and gut telling me yes. The chap I bought it off knew who won Le Mans in '71 which was all the history I needed. I knew it was the one instantly. History means very little today, a bit like the M.O.T. test. Know the right people and it'll pass. With something this old you just stand back, decide if you really want one and get ready for the ride. Life's too short to worry about whether the sun roof opens or if the oil was changed in 1981.

I've had some memorable times in an MGB too, just never bought the poster.
Enjoy your car and don't let it go. Mine is staying with me for good.

Thanks.

Robert.
Man, you hit it right on! I see so many picking these cars apart that it seems they themselves are killing the value. They ride on the rhythm that one must have all correct and rightous knowledge in the world about the car before it is purchased, "get a PPI", they yelp. All these distressing warnings. Do this, do that, get the history, all these things and more can pit these cars into the grave of discouragement for many. I mean, I know that all here mean well but it can and will be looked at with different interpretations. For example, I bought my 930 site-unseen, wired the money and then went up to another state to pick it up. It was only after I got my car back and settled in that I started reading some of the stuff on this forum. Hell, I probably would not have purchased the car let alone driven it back from another state - really, some of the post here are down right scary for new owners. But the car did not let me down, the car drove nicely, handled well and I knew all along that I was, like you, ready to start the venture into the dark side. I think you are very correct in saying that value or worth must start HERE, in this forum, for it is HERE that can make a big difference in the final outcome of what this thread is all about, the legendary 930.

As far as the mechanical condition or challenges of the 930, as it pertains to the actual value or worth of the 930 and for which most here judge it, how about this to stir your soup: a shell of a car in a field used for target practice with buck shot in the fenders, a pure rust bucket without an engine, completely stripped sells for, duh, $226,521.00 US
http://www.autoblog.com/2008/11/10/ebay-find-of-the-day-1963-lemans-tempest-sells-for-226-521/?icid=200100397x1213497635x1200798037

Old 03-02-2009, 05:19 PM
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I absolutely support the values of these amazing cars to go to a minimum of 100K as of next Saturday, Picking mine up on Friday
Old 03-02-2009, 06:20 PM
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As much as you seem convinced people like myself are wound too tight, I'm 100% positive that doing one's level best to determine EXACTLY what has you laying down your money is ALWAYS a good idea. I've learned the hard way that blind leaps of faith can be a HUGE mistake. I'm no romantic, I'm not made of money and I'm no longer willing to make leaps of faith. I can't apologize for knowing what I want and being willing to crawl around under a car for an hour getting peace of mind.

Sorry to be a buzz-kill.
Scott
Old 03-02-2009, 06:41 PM
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I paid 32K for mine. And I'm sure I overpaid a little, but it was the right car, And an absolute bargain considering the pleasure I have gotten from owning it the past 2 years. I modified it, and it is perfect. I could care less what it's worth now, or if I have made it less valuable in terms of market value, I intend to pass it along to my kids someday. You guys know the deal, there is nothing on four wheels that can take it's place.
Eric
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Old 03-02-2009, 07:23 PM
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[QUOTE=voitureltd;4518524]Different strokes,,,,,,,. Some will nitpick themselves right into never owning anything . Just about any reasonably honestly represented 930 is a worthwhile endeavor. Blatant dishonesty is always a possibility. As having purchased over 40 930s and 100s of others over the decades I can say I regret only one purchase and I have never once paid for a PPI. I am not bragging, I just rely on fellow enthusiasts and basic instincts to judge others moral character and knowledge of original build and perception as it relates to the condition of the car they own. And for 930s as others have tried to compare with, I have had the mentioned Ferrari's, Lambo's, Aston's, muscle cars and others going back into the 60's and believe me I have never wanted to own another , after owning various 930 project cars over the last 40 purchases ( a few I still have kept ) for the incomparable attributes they possess. Obviously I am in the camp that really appreciates these cars. I for one hope they come into their real value only after I have all the ones I can keep for awhile. Then I will reluctantly sell to only appreciative and worthy suiters when necessary. PS..... that Pontiac that someone paid $226K for is a great tribute to a certain frenzy that has not touched the 930 market(yet?????). Ten years ago it was a target in a field, to me it still is. Different strokes.....
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Old 03-02-2009, 07:38 PM
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Thanks for some very encouraging responses guys.

I just needed to vent some long building frustration on the 930's position in peoples perceptions and attitudes. By that I mean people outside this community. I certainly wasn't in any way trying to question the genuine love all you guys have for the 930.

I may have been a little misunderstood with regard to monetary values.
It would kill many peoples enjoyment of this fantastic drivers machine if the values were to catch up with those of the scary priced super exotics out there. I certainly wouldn't be able to afford one and would hate for anyone else with the same dream to never have that chance.
I don't intend ever selling mine anyway, but would it really be so bad if the values at least acknowledged the huge role the 930 played in creating the Porsche legend. There are a few prices out there the wrong way round in my opinion.
Old 03-02-2009, 08:29 PM
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The car went mostly unchanged for 11 of its 13 year lifespan. It's simple supply and demand. See how many A+/- LP400 Countachs are out there. They probably made more 930s in half a year than that.

With that said, they are still under-appreciated. Which is fine, because that's the only reason people still DRIVE them. If these cars start pushing 50, 60, 70K for a decent quality driver with over 50,000 miles, they'll all end up sitting in a garage, while the owners head grows bigger. Nevermind the sub 10,000 mile garage queen '89 slant cabs that never see a day of sunshine with the top down, even now.
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Old 03-02-2009, 08:45 PM
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[QUOTE][Probably had to wait to own the car of his/her dreams/QUOTE]....I'm still saving and will continue to do so until I have a '89 Alpine White 930 in my garage....
Old 03-03-2009, 03:42 AM
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Here in Oz, very low km 930's are pushing AU$100k at the moment. These are being bought by astute collectors. Look at the price a pristine long hood now, over AU$100k.
Old 03-03-2009, 03:54 AM
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