Latest Project - Headers

[mb911]

one thing people never address is the fact that stainless has a week point but only when being welded. If the weld HAZ area is to hot then carbide percip happens and will cause cracking. this can be greatly increased possibility when you do multi pass on thin wall tubing e.i. the same joint. What OBX does is Hi heat root welds then a second "butter" weld to make it look "pretty " to the novice and will trap a good lot of them as well. This is why I would never run them period. And when I worked with brian on this project We (M&K) we very aware of the conditions that these would be subjected to and had a plan to control this with chill plates and back purge. You can never be too careful .

Anyhow that just gives some of the insight as to why turbo guys speciifc need to be very careful what they bolt on

[jpnovak]

Now that explanation is worth its weight in gold! Thanks Ben.

[spence88mph]

Originally Posted by mb911

Anyhow that just gives some of the insight as to why turbo guys speciifc need to be very careful what they bolt on

Apart from material dislodging from the inside of the headers and destroying your turbo (a potential problem with OBX if not inspected prior to mounting, though I haven't heard of this actually happening to anyone) what other negative effect could these headers have on an engine?

[mb911]

Originally Posted by spence88mph

Apart from material dislodging from the inside of the headers and destroying your turbo (a potential problem with OBX if not inspected prior to mounting, though I haven't heard of this actually happening to anyone) what other negative effect could these headers have on an engine?

The OBX are not back purged. This means "sugar" inside and that will break off and well you know what happens then

[Chuck Jones]

".....What I expect is better quality, better fitment, longevity, and ease of installation. I also expect a better boost signal which will eliminate the boost creep commonly seen in high HP applications.
The merge collectors and equal length pipes will be a gain over typical unequal short pipe systems but how much of a gain depends on application. If I can keep the price point anywhere close to B&B etc then all these features add up to great value. THAT'S what I'm shootin' for."

Brian: I can't imagine any better explanation of what you're trying to accomplish than what you wrote above. If you can keep the price point close to the competition, you should blow past them on the basis of your mission statement alone.

Taking from one of my favorite segments of the movie Jeremiah Johnson....Ya done good Pilgrim...

Best of luck in the marketing phase....but Wayne hasn't historically picked up a product line that doesn't meet some pretty strict criteria. What are your plans if demand exceeds supply? Wouldn't that be the icing on the cake?

[RarlyL8]

Demand exceeding supply? Not likely but a nice problem to have!
You will notice that I have not taken pre-pay orders. That allows me to take the time I need to do this right and not be rushed from fear of delaying shipment. I have a list of folks who have contacted me; once we go to production I will accept their deposits.
Part of the pricepoint equasion is reduced materials cost through volume. Once I sell a few sets and get good feedback I will do a large production run. This is risky for me but necessary to keep the retail price reasonable. That strategy means I will have inventory so no waiting. Right now I inventory the components to make several mufflers and re-order when I use up 1/2 of the parts. I am also building inventory on K27 Turbochargers due to the shortage and lengthy lead times. The plan is to be ready for sales to come once the recession lifts.
Wayne has picked up my line of mufflers and will have the headers as well once they are a proven seller. That is why I am allowed to post about it on this forum.

[JFairman]

"What OBX does is Hi heat root welds then a second "butter" weld to make it look "pretty " to the novice and will trap a good lot of them as well."

How can you prove that? Did you go to China and watch?

Multiple passes takes more time and the last thing they're going to do in a communist country is take more time building a product.

Tig welding is not hard to learn and it's not brain surgery. Anyone can learn to do it well and make pretty little clamshells including welders in China.
They may not get a job fabricating the aluminum monocoque space shuttle crew cabins for NASA, but then neither will you.

I'm not trying to stick up for all Chinese products but that sounded like total biased BS.

The consumer is quality control for alot of low cost chinese products and if you're on a budget some of it is a good deal.

Go to Harbor Freight and buy some heavy duty chain that was also made in China and run it back and forth through the primary and secondary tubes of the OBX headers to break off any loose internal welding slag.

[RarlyL8]

J you are way off on this. Ben teaches welding at the college level. He can tell by looking what method has been use. Cut the damned thing in two and you can SEE it.

I actually know a few folks responsible for welding the pace shuttle - they do it right here in Huntsville. Guess what? People don't do it, it is done by computer.

YOU run a chain through YOUR headers and hope for the best. I won't do that to my clients.

[mb911]

Originally Posted by JFairman

"What OBX does is Hi heat root welds then a second "butter" weld to make it look "pretty " to the novice and will trap a good lot of them as well."

How can you prove that? Did you go to China and watch?

Multiple passes takes more time and the last thing they're going to do in a communist country is take more time building a product.

Tig welding is not hard to learn and it's not brain surgery. Anyone can learn to do it well and make pretty little clamshells including welders in China.
They may not get a job fabricating the aluminum monocoque space shuttle crew cabins for NASA, but then neither will you.

I'm not trying to stick up for all Chinese products but that sounded like total biased BS.

The consumer is quality control for alot of low cost chinese products and if you're on a budget some of it is a good deal.

Go to Harbor Freight and buy some heavy duty chain that was also made in China and run it back and forth through the primary and secondary tubes of the OBX headers to break off any loose internal welding slag.

Because I teach it and am a CWI I know how to test and to inspect for things like that this is not a hobby of mine this what I do. What do you do? To be honest I worked for a company that TIG welded the thromocouples for the space shuttle.

[911nut]

Originally Posted by JFairman

"What OBX does is Hi heat root welds then a second "butter" weld to make it look "pretty " to the novice and will trap a good lot of them as well."

How can you prove that? Did you go to China and watch?

Multiple passes takes more time and the last thing they're going to do in a communist country is take more time building a product.

Tig welding is not hard to learn and it's not brain surgery. Anyone can learn to do it well and make pretty little clamshells including welders in China.
They may not get a job fabricating the aluminum monocoque space shuttle crew cabins for NASA, but then neither will you.

I'll chime in here as I am a Welding Engineer.
Ben is spot on when he says that carbide precipitation occurs as a result of multi-pass welding on alloy 304.
This is undesirable as the carbides are precipitated from solid solution and from in the grain boundaries, combined with chromium, robbing the adjacent grains of uncombined chromium. The bulk of the chromium carbide percipitate forms in the heat affected zone of the weld as this area experiences the peak temperatures between the melting point and ambient temperature of the base metal. Intergranular cracking can occur in the heat-affected zone due to the high temperature service and corrosive conditions seen on exhaust systems.

As for J's comments on OBX welding processing, I will state that an experienced eye can detect a multi-pass weld. If J would like to donate his headers for metallographic analysis by cutting a suspect weld out of a pipe, sectioning it, polishing and etching it I'm more than sure that the existence of multi-pass welds can be proven to his satisfaction

J, I don't think you know how to TIG weld thin section stainless steel pipes based on your assessment of the difficulty of doing it and the skill required. While welding fabrication isn't a glamorous job, it is a skill; one that takes years to master. The skill comes into play based on the metal that is being welded, the geometry of the weld, the thickness of the metal, allowable distortion and more parameters that I'm not going to list here.
Finally, as with everything, you get what you pay for and headers are really no different.

[RarlyL8]

She is finished!!
Man what a long weekend. Worked all day yesterday until 2am this morning. My welder broke about midnight but I was able to repair it. I have 2 boxes full of scrap pipe.
Meeting all these criteria was a rather daunting task. I now completely understand why the popular aftermarket systems did not bother with making their systems fit around oil lines and sump tanks.

So here is what was accomplished:
> 321 stainless steel construction.
> Easy installation.
> Equal length primaries.
> Equal length secondaries
> Improved waste gate circuit
> Accommodates stock early turbo oil tank.
> Accommodates stock Euro/late US oil lines
> Accommodates valve cover removal with waste gate in place.

Ben has not seen the finish prototype yet and is going to kill me for what I did with the waste gate circuit. This is going to complicate fixturing.

The front style oil line has good clearance as it comes by the Y-pipe and secondary:




The stock early 930 turbo oil sump tank is retained and clears with ease:




Headers clear front style oil line completely.




Waste gate clears valve covers for removal for adjustments:

[mb911]

how much ground cleareance do you have? Looks like fun for the waste gate circuit.

[RarlyL8]

The stock turbo oil sump tank is the lowest part of the system. I measured the stock J-pipe at 3.5" from the bottom of the lower valve covers, this system is 4" from the bottom of the valve covers.
I'll post pictures of the waste gate circuit this evening. I think it is going to open a few eyeballs.
This is a unique product. Nothing on the market has addressed all of these issues in one package. Can you tell I am exited about this!

[RarlyL8]

Here she is:

[jpnovak]

MMM I like spaghetti.

Nice Job Brain!

[Ag02M5]

Signing on for updates. Really would like to have some of your gear on my 965.

[stup]

I like the look of these headers and could be on my shopping list at the correct price!..good work and effort in designing the system,the more product choice for our cars the better!.

I would like to chime in here about the cheaper branded headers after all the slagging they continue to receive....
Firstly I would choose the best quality headers out there if money was no issue!!
i would like to say i have fitted a couple of sets of gsf/obx headers now and like also some other more expensive brands they have fitment issues and should be definately cleaned out/checked internally however if you are hands on and dont want to spend a few thousand dollars on headers my opinion is that they are good value for money!....

Please note i am not selling or promoting anything here just stating my experiences!

I have spent nearly as much hours and effort as most on here improving/modifying my pride and joy and out of interest nearly 2 years ago purchased a set of obx headers,made a mdf jig up to check alignment,tweeked to suit,check internally with small inspection camera,cleaned and have now run then for over 18months under some extreme conditions,very high temps on roll and road,track etc and have been 100 percent perfect and i have not even had to retighten to heads as some have found with some systems.
On another gsf set same conditions/results as above..
Recently i went off road for a photo shoot and unfortunately cosmetically damaged my own set so i will be on the market for a new set of headers and will consider this new designed product which in no doubt will be better quality than most others and hopefully gain us more performance into the bargain with dyno results!.
In the meantime for some and at the time for me, with my experiences my 379 dollar headers have proved to me sometimes you get More! than what you pay for in some comparisons.
Getting back to the thread,great work and i look forward to seeing the end results with this new header option for us all!.

[RarlyL8]

OBX is a crapshoot. The guys who win post here, the guys who blow a turbo and engine are embarrassed and keep it to themselves. Percentages? No idea but even one is too many. As I have stated before, I can sell anything so have the luxury to pick and choose. I won't chance a $15K+ engine when it comes to products that can potentially do harm (cheap wastegates for example). This product was born from these experiences and the desire to address all of the shortcomings current to the aftermarket. Believe me it would have been a lot easier to not do this and just be a dealer of whatever is out there, ha!
I do understand cost. I am a middle class enthusiast who happens to like the 930. Every effort is being made to contain costs short of chaining my kids to a welder for committing political crimes.

[911st]

Beautiful job.
Very well thought out.
Should get the exhaust events through in a very orderly and efficient way.

Would be interesting to fill it with watter (including the WG pipe) and see how the volume compares to a stock late USA/Euro set up or SSI based system.

In general, do wastgates have to be extended from the main header for heat isolation or is it just the lay out of a 930 that requires a long tube. Always wondered if one did it right if one could hang the WG near the turbo.


How can a piece of slag from a header blow a motor? Wouldn't it just take mess up the turbine wheel?

[RarlyL8]

She'd leak pretty good if I filled it with water right now, ha!
Interesting thought about total capacity. The stock exchangers most likely have less total capacity because they are basically just one long tube instead of a bunch of tubes like I have. I don't plan to check that just take it to the dyno and see what happens in the real world.

The waste gate is located in that spot for packaging purposes as that is very close to the stock position so you can hook up the stock banjo fittings to the waste gate and have plenty of room for the muffler system. I have a dual waste gate system developed as well that puts one waste gate per bank Y'ed off directly after the header. Very short tubes there.

I know of several turbos blown by aftermarket headers. A phone call and conversation with any turbo builder will confirm that this is not uncommon. I know of one engine damaged and that was caused when header slag hit the turbine wheel damaging the bearings sending metal filings into the oil. May have avoided engine damage had the car been shut down immediately and the complete oil system flushed.