[Solved] Problem with TURBOKRAFT

[IMR-Merlin]

Originally Posted by IDGAF27

I don't get it !?
"...stand up guy..." , "...great reputation..", "...Chris is almost obsessive/compulsive to a fault about stuff like this..." and etc !!!!

Thierry25 needed THREE MONTHS to get an answer , appology and public statment his money will be refunded !!!! I understand being busy for a week. OK, lets say two weeks and then solve the problem. But THREE MONTHS and involvement of Pelican Parts Forum !?
How TurboCraft is better than MotorMeister, Zufenhaus ( wiht their wheels ) ?

Really !?

Seems to me , only figuring out what this kind of publicity, on the web ,will do to his reputation, Chris addresed the issue .

He does live in France, shipping over seas takes time unless sent by air.

[xbmwguy]

ive spoken to cris a few times regarding which manifold to go with for my current efi project as well as injector blocks and rails, very knowledgable guy and yet i went a different route i chose pat willims racing in memphis and could not be more pleased with fit finish and turnaround. he even had one of his special garret turbos built for me in that 2 week time. great guy, great products. just my 2

[IDGAF27]

Originally Posted by IMR-Merlin

He does live in France, shipping over seas takes time unless sent by air.

You kidding me right? How much time it takes to asure one that problem will be solved?! To make everything right so he won't go public?!

I want that stuff you on.

He paid , upfront , in July, 2010. Received in October 2010. WENT PUBLIC ABOUT HIS PROBLEM in JANUARY 2011. What it has to do ith the place he lives? Are ou telling me Paypal, Bank to Bank wire takes monthS to arrainge......

[IMR-Merlin]

Originally Posted by IDGAF27

You kidding me right? How much time it takes to asure one that problem will be solved?! To make everything right so he won't go public?!

I want that stuff you on.

He paid , upfront , in July, 2010. Received in October 2010. WENT PUBLIC ABOUT HIS PROBLEM in JANUARY 2011. What it has to do ith the place he lives? Are ou telling me Paypal, Bank to Bank wire takes monthS to arrainge......

No, I am not kidding, unless I read the initial post wrong. The OP stated that he had a 3rd party send the parts to TC and TC had to outsource the work another company that does his extrude hone work.... if you follow the crumbs, the trail is pretty easy to follow, now add shipping time across the ATLANTIC and the math starts to add up.

As for the rep from TC (Chris), within 24 hours of this post going "public" he responded and owned up to his short comings on QC, which I have run into situations in outsourcing..... and I can understand Chris' plight.


So, in short, not joking. Just have run into situations where I trusted a company that I did work with before and ended up holding the short end of the stick. It took some time to rectify the situation, but in the end, the correct response to the problem is the end of the argument. I replaced the product, refunded the customer on top of it and made it right.

Let time work things out. If you can't figure out why it took 3 months for the OP to see the start of this transaction to end that made him start this thread, it's not my fault that you have no concept of the fabrication industry.


Again if I read understood it wrong.... as in it took 3 months for TC to respond to a complaint. Then it is on TC to rectify.

[proffighter]

Why I have to care about outsourcing as a customer?

If a company is not able to do this without quality issue and excessive delivery time, then they better leave it

Regardless which industry, if it fails like this, then I would expect they work day and night to resolve it!

How long can it take to find a manifold and machine it? I machined mine within two hours... with tolerance of less than a tenth mm not a few mm!!!

I can completely understand Thierry. I know, Chris does not screwed up himself, but he is responsible for and he should act like this.

[IDGAF27]

Originally Posted by IMR-Merlin

No, I am not kidding, unless I read the initial post wrong. The OP stated that he had a 3rd party send the parts to TC and TC had to outsource the work another company that does his extrude hone work.... if you follow the crumbs, the trail is pretty easy to follow, now add shipping time across the ATLANTIC and the math starts to add up. from day one(item paid) till day X item received in France ( October 2010) no one gives crap. It is just process. LOOOONG waiting proccess

As for the rep from TC (Chris), within 24 hours of this post (my pointgoing "public" he responded and owned up to his short comings on QC, which I have run into situations in outsourcingWhy it couldn't be solved or addressed in proper maner from Oct.2010 until January 2011 ?..... and I can understand Chris' plight.Really?!


So, in short, not joking. Just have run into situations where I trusted a company that I did work with before and ended up holding the short end of the stick. It took some time to rectify the situation, but in the end, the correct response to the problem is the end of the argument. I replaced the product, refunded the customer on top of it and made it right.

Let time work things out. If you can't figure out why it took 3 months for the OP to see the start of this transaction to end that made him start this thread, it's not my fault that you have no concept of the fabrication industry.I deffinetly want that stuff you are on .


Again if I read understood it wrong YES , YOU READ THIS WRONG.... as in it took 3 months for TC to respond to a complaint. Then it is on TC to rectify.

it took TC to respond ,in correct manner, three (3) monhts from day, Thierry ,received his part ( in France, some time in Oct.2010). 3(three ) months and public statement how TC screwd him !

Oh, and in regards of "having no concept of the fabrication industry"- why should I? I pay $$$. You give me ET and promise of quality. What goes in between, why should I care? Seems,to me, you have to have better understanding of fabrication industry not to give FALSE promises.

unless you are part owner/share holder or interested party in TC , I don't get you position.

[drmatera]

nobody here knows how this all went down but as a business owner I can assure you things do fall through the cracks. And sometimes the worst oversights happen repeatedly to the same customer. I seriously doubt any ill intentions on Chris's part. It's easy to sit here and arm chair quaterback this situation with a zero tolerance for human error but EVERYBODY makes mistakes and that's just a fact!

He is fixing this now because it has been brought to his attention.

[9dreizig]

Originally Posted by drmatera

nobody here knows how this all went down but as a business owner I can assure you things do fall through the cracks. And sometimes the worst oversights happen repeatedly to the same customer. I seriously doubt any ill intentions on Chris's part. It's easy to sit here and arm chair quaterback this situation with a zero tolerance for human error but EVERYBODY makes mistakes and that's just a fact!

He is fixing this now because it has been brought to his attention.

+1 on this. Kris is a standup guy and as highly respected as anyone in the industry....

[IDGAF27]

agree with you Paul. Errors happens. We all humans afterall.
Back to subject and my point :

I don't get it ( rest of the sentence in ,my , first post).

[Thierry25]

Originally Posted by TurboKraft

But in this case, Thierry is spot -on: we screwed up, and he's got every right to be upset.
We didn't -- I didn't -- verify his order was done right, and it got shipped out. Poor quality control, my error.
And I was supposed to email him a photo of the new manifold I'd had pilot bored at our machine shop, but didn't follow up on that. Again, my error.
My apologies to you, Thierry. You're a respected guy on this board, and I admire your innovation with your car (way cool electronic tuning of the CIS!) I have no desire or intention to do to screw you over.

We did 4 Porsche manifolds with E-H in a batch, and Thierry's was one of them. It took E-H forever, and the first time they returned the parts (late) they barely flowed them at all -- maybe 1mm opened, hardly smoothed out inside. They paid to overnight them back and re-do them, and that added weeks again.

We've used one of the manifolds (it was good), shipped one (also good), and until a few minutes ago the last one was one a shelf here, waiting for when we got to that client engine job.

I just got the box down and inspected the part. Thierry's photos don't do it justice. The manifold is simply ruined. Ports that were once round are now egg-shaped or almost a polygon.

I can't use this part, and I wouldn't expect Thierry to use that one. It's crap.

We prepped this other manifold, but have a production delay with our CIS Injector Blocks and are looking at 3 more weeks. (Sorry to you all, too, who are waiting on these.) This is how Thierry's manifold looked *before* we sent it to Extrude-Hone for their "Level II processing."


Thierry -- my apologies to you, again. I just saw your email in my Inbox and I'll send you that refund via PayPal to the address you gave. I included the postage you listed to send back those parts. I'm sending that manifold back to E-H for them to look at. We've gotten a tough lesson today in Quality Control, and maybe E-H will learn from this, too.

Regards,

Chris

Thank you very much for your input, for the story details and for your apologizes ( that I believe sincere)

As a well reputed professional , I was pretty sure ( and I expected) that you would come to reply to my thread. Somewhere what's a pity.....you knew by my numerous sent emails that it wasn't my intention to attempt to your reputation. But at last, without pictures, without answer, and with an important disappointment ....this was the last way I found to make you to move quicker and to consider my case.

As you certainly understood from our past communication, I well understand all kinds of problem outsourcing can create. I also run my own business which involves many outsources. I also consider that everyone can make mistakes... we are all human. This is why, I was quite patient and I kept this story on private side only until this thread. But after past 6 months ( not few weeks ), for the customer I am , it is simply unacceptable to do not get the goods I paid for.

Back to the EH trouble itself, you know my opinion. Honestly, I would have been happy to receive "as is" the manifold that you displayed the pictures with correctly sized injector blocks . The 38mm machining job seems to be nice and well done. Considering what I saw from the ruined manifold you sent to me , I was not impressed by the EH itself and I do not believe it makes huge improvement. So many trouble and headache for very few added CFM only ( which can be certainly compensated by other parameters and/or stuff ) .... At least, you take the right decision to suspend the EH offering !!!

Lastly, no people dye. Things have been said, you conveyed human apologies and professional explains here. That’s fine ! I have no anger about you. I also learn with this case.

Now, I am waiting for your refund on my paypal account and this story will be definitively closed for me.

Best regards

Thierry

[Kraftday]

Thierry, sorry to hear of this situation.

Chris probably has the most experience of processing and developing Porsche parts with the Extrude Hone company. Even before 2005, when Kennametal an American tool company bought Extrude Hone’s patented process. This isn’t the first Porsche magnesium manifold the company has done. Hopefully in the future the process won't have to be priced out of existence. When done properly, it is quite effective.

The AFM process as basic as it is requires an investment of time and isn’t performed in the back of the shop, on every street corner or State. Managing multiples reduces customer cost and saves setup. In this instance, against all precautions the operations done by Extrude Hone were not done properly on all of the parts in the batch. And what's with the out of character delays?

Bottom line is the part shouldn’t have been forwarded to the customer after it was received back to TurboKraft. The shipping cost and time to France shouldn’t have even been bared.

One thing I value about working with Chris at TurboKraft is that he operates with high integrity. So ridiculously high, it is difficult to survive by offering special projects in this industry.

Thierry, I wouldn’t doubt Chris at TurboKraft, will ultimately supply you true Porsche quality parts in the end.

[hoyabear]

In any growing small business mistakes will be made, it is always a struggle to keep up with QC issues, especially when outsourcing partners are involved. The important thing here was that once the problem came to light, Chris made the right moves to address the issue properly. The highly-positive impression I have of Chris's business from my admittedly-limited dealings with him have only been reinforced by the way in which he is rectifying this issue.

[Hirevtuner]

I just saw this thread and had to post.
In the pics you see my intake Chris had extrude honed and his injector blocks.
Thanks to his help and many hours on the phone I got 411 rwhp on a CIS motor with 112,000 km's on it.
Chris recommended the extrude hone process and offered to send my intake to them. I don't think he makes much money on this if any. He just offers to be the middle man. Extrude hone is the company doing the porting and not Turbo Kraft. Sorry for your bad experience but Chris is a stand up guy who will most likely make everything right even if he losses money. He is a car car like the rest of us.

[David]

This reminds me of a story a balance engineer I worked with told me about a job he had at an engine shop as kid.

A guy brought in a crank to be lightened and balanced and paid ahead of time. He came by the shop and nobody was in the front office but his crank was sitting there all ready to go so he took it and built his engine.

A couple days later he brought his crank back in two pieces.

The shop owner rushed up, started apologizing and explained that they over lightened the crank. He said they meant to explain this to the customer when he came in for the crank, give him his old crank, and give him a new correct crank in a few days.

The customer said, "Don't worry about it, I was leading the race when it broke and I want another one just like it!"

[JFairman]

well, on a lighter note.. it's been kinda cool seeing all these hogged out pancake manifold ports.

[Thierry25]

Originally Posted by drmatera

I seriously doubt any ill intentions on Chris's part.

Did I mention something in this way ?

[drmatera]

you didn't, but the sharks were circling

[gruppe75]

It takes a lifetime to establish a good reputation, and one oversight seems so devastating. Sometimes life just isn't fair.

[IDGAF27]

why so dramatic ? Life is life. We all take to the face once or twice in a lifetime. Matter is how fast we get up and handle our selfs afterwards.

lesson is: there are no small problem. They all should be addressed in proper and timely manner.

would any of us knew about it if it was solved before hitting internet?

[Thierry25]

Originally Posted by gruppe75

It takes a lifetime to establish a good reputation, and one oversight seems so devastating. Sometimes life just isn't fair.

Do you mean that I shouldn't come to public with my case ? What would have you done if you were in my position ?