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ex-man stud question: what's wrong w/ this picture?

I recently bought these ARP studs from a member here and returned the OE ones to our host.

FINALLY got the last stud drilled out tonight & re-tapped, and was able to test fit the right header to ensure correct stud alignment.

Well, the studs seem very short. Without seating the headers fully into the ports (seemed to be a real tight fit!), it's clear the studs just seem too short. Especially when you consider the 1st 1/4" isn't even threaded. Ugh.

I hadn't bothered to compare them to the OE ones I'd removed, or measure them - just figured they were right. But even after seating the headers (haven't yet - don't dare until I'm ready), it's pretty obvious the studs are going to be too short (esp. after the gasket is included, and the very thick ARP washers).

What's the braintrust say?

I'd hoped to have this together this week to take up to Climb to the Clouds | The 2011 Climb To the Clouds Hillclimb in NH (woot!... covering it for ECM), but this seems yet another set back.

Of course, I already returned the OE ones I'd bought.

Sigh...

Any insight appreciated - TIA as always gents...


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Paul... CT | '87 930 | '08 M3 6gang vert |
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| '07 S6 | '98 M3 vert | '01 M5 | '96 993 C2 cab | '05 S600 Sport - biturbo V12@Just Not Right 495rwhp / 612rwtq |
| '58 TR3A | '01 S8 | '95 S6 6gang | '88 M5 | '87 190E 2.3-16 |
Old 06-20-2011, 08:42 PM
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Oh no! If they are too short (are you running O.E. exhaust?) please just ship them back to me with the tool and I'll happily refund your $. They are the same ones I installed on my car, but I never had a factory exhaust. Let me know either way, search M8 ARP stud on summit to find other lengths.
Old 06-21-2011, 03:18 AM
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They will stick out further than the old ones won't they, look where the stop point is in the middle of the thread
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87 930, 993 turbo engine, RS Tuning 520PS/515lbf-ft, Arrow Rods, ARP hardware, Solid lifters, G50-50, RS Flywheel, 890nm Sachs clutch, RSR coil overs all round, 993 C4 calipers front, 930 fronts on the rear, Ruf Speedlines.....
Old 540 BMW, XB12S Modified, for being a total hooligan
Old 06-21-2011, 04:23 AM
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I'm installing Powerhaus headers.

I see Jonathan, thanks for pointing that out to me. Duh. I was looking at them as as if they had to bottom out up into the head. I should be looking @ the stop-point as you noted.

Hey it was midnight last night and I'm entering my 5th week here, sometimes it's hard to see thru the foggy haze 8-/... and it was my machinist friend that was over and brought up the observation. Shame on him heh heh.

To his defense, they did seem short with the header fitted up - albeit they had a bit more to go w/ the port portion not pressed in.

OK, I'll press the headers up on into the ports tonight and go for broke.

Thanks guys - sorry Emanuel for the panic attack 8-)...
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Paul... CT | '87 930 | '08 M3 6gang vert |
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| '07 S6 | '98 M3 vert | '01 M5 | '96 993 C2 cab | '05 S600 Sport - biturbo V12@Just Not Right 495rwhp / 612rwtq |
| '58 TR3A | '01 S8 | '95 S6 6gang | '88 M5 | '87 190E 2.3-16 |
Old 06-21-2011, 05:26 AM
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I don't know but it seems to me you would want the exhaust studs to bottom out in the threads in the heads so they have more to hang on to and don't pull the threads out of the head. I've had to timesert two exhaust port stud threads in the head from them stripping and pulling out and then leaking, and they were standard steel studs.

The ARP studs come in a bunch of different lengths and I'm pretty sure your Powerhaus headers are actually B&B headers made for powerhaus and they have thick flanges so I would check and get the longest ones possible that bottom out and aren't too long but leave a little left over after the nuts and washers are on.

good luck with it!
Old 06-21-2011, 07:29 AM
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I hear ya Jim, thanks.

I just called Summit Racing - they don't list any specific ones for our cars, said they could provide them based upon measurements I give them. I don't have the stud here to measure tho of course.

I counted the threads tho, it looks like 10 before the stop, vs. what appears to be maybe 12 before the OE stop. He said 10 was more than enough in his opinion.

Thoughts?

Yes, the flanges on these are quite thick - maybe a bit thicker than OE. Interesting on B&B for Powerhaus - I think I've heard that before too but it's good to know. Funny, I thought they looked just like GHL's as well! Same case there maybe on supplier? Again, interesting...
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Paul... CT | '87 930 | '08 M3 6gang vert |
past:

| '07 S6 | '98 M3 vert | '01 M5 | '96 993 C2 cab | '05 S600 Sport - biturbo V12@Just Not Right 495rwhp / 612rwtq |
| '58 TR3A | '01 S8 | '95 S6 6gang | '88 M5 | '87 190E 2.3-16 |
Old 06-21-2011, 07:57 AM
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I just pulled up the 2.25" studs on their site (I'm gonna go out on a limb and say mine are 2"?), and counted the in-head threads.



Looks to be the exact same?

So longer ones only increases the length thru the flange then.

Guess I'll loctite the piss out of them and hope for the best 8-/. That's what I get for trying to 'do the right thing' (stainless vs. OE) d'oh.
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Paul... CT | '87 930 | '08 M3 6gang vert |
past:

| '07 S6 | '98 M3 vert | '01 M5 | '96 993 C2 cab | '05 S600 Sport - biturbo V12@Just Not Right 495rwhp / 612rwtq |
| '58 TR3A | '01 S8 | '95 S6 6gang | '88 M5 | '87 190E 2.3-16 |
Old 06-21-2011, 08:06 AM
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You are correct on the thread length inside the flange, once you exceed 2.5 times the diameter of the stud in thread end length you no longer add any further strength to the fastener, this is why you will not see any studs made by ARP with longer thread ends. (Unless you have them custom made due to additional needs or they are for a special application that addresses additional mechanical forces) try inserting one stud and turning it all the way in with an allen key by it's nose, then measure the length from the head flange to the end of the threaded portion of the studs... now measure the width of your header flange and subtract - you should have enough length left over to accomadate the length of the nut, the ARP washers are not needed in this application. If the studs are too short and do not work I am 100% happy to take them back and throw them back into my pile of spares. I'm sure I can use them somewhere. (wastegate studs perhaps?)

E-man over and out

Last edited by E-man930; 06-21-2011 at 09:23 AM..
Old 06-21-2011, 08:47 AM
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Good insight... thanks for that feedback Emanuel, and for the offer of return - greatly appreciated.

I hope I wasn't coming across as that I was duped in any way - if so sorry that was most certainly not my intention.

Wish me luck...
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Paul... CT | '87 930 | '08 M3 6gang vert |
past:

| '07 S6 | '98 M3 vert | '01 M5 | '96 993 C2 cab | '05 S600 Sport - biturbo V12@Just Not Right 495rwhp / 612rwtq |
| '58 TR3A | '01 S8 | '95 S6 6gang | '88 M5 | '87 190E 2.3-16 |
Old 06-21-2011, 09:29 AM
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OK - the ARP studs I have are 1.75"... I threaded them in and seated the headers up tight - the tips barely stick thru the flanges.

Fuch.

Need 2.25" for sure.

Emanuel, I'll ping you in the morning - going to bed for now.

Was hoping to wrap this up to drive it up to NH for Climb to the Clouds | The 2011 Climb To the Clouds Hillclimb which I'm covering this weekend for ECMag - guess I'll ride gun in the neighbor's Vette, ah well.
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Paul... CT | '87 930 | '08 M3 6gang vert |
past:

| '07 S6 | '98 M3 vert | '01 M5 | '96 993 C2 cab | '05 S600 Sport - biturbo V12@Just Not Right 495rwhp / 612rwtq |
| '58 TR3A | '01 S8 | '95 S6 6gang | '88 M5 | '87 190E 2.3-16 |
Old 06-21-2011, 09:30 PM
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Hey Paul, Bummer that your 930 won't be together in time for the drive to hillclimb. What mag is ECM? Is it Excellence??
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Old 06-22-2011, 03:24 AM
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MikeD! 8-)

Yeah, a bit frustrating but after so many kicks in the nutes w/ this Projekt I've stopped getting annoyed and just roll with it. Thanks tho!

ECM... check my sig silly 8-). I'd offer to cover it for Excellence but I don't think there's even one Porsche entered, I'll have to double check the roster.

Kickarse event tho, mini Pike's Peak fersure - 6mi up 6,288' of gnarliness!!!
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Paul... CT | '87 930 | '08 M3 6gang vert |
past:

| '07 S6 | '98 M3 vert | '01 M5 | '96 993 C2 cab | '05 S600 Sport - biturbo V12@Just Not Right 495rwhp / 612rwtq |
| '58 TR3A | '01 S8 | '95 S6 6gang | '88 M5 | '87 190E 2.3-16 |
Old 06-22-2011, 05:28 AM
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That sucks man - well ship 'em back with the tool and I'll paypal the $ back to you for the studs.
I think I'm going to throw them on my Tial. Order the 2.25" versions and post some pics when you get to assembly.

E-man
Old 06-22-2011, 07:17 AM
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Much appreciated good sir!

YGM, need your addy again. They'll go out tomorrow.

Calling Summit now, just lost another week plus 8-/...
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Paul... CT | '87 930 | '08 M3 6gang vert |
past:

| '07 S6 | '98 M3 vert | '01 M5 | '96 993 C2 cab | '05 S600 Sport - biturbo V12@Just Not Right 495rwhp / 612rwtq |
| '58 TR3A | '01 S8 | '95 S6 6gang | '88 M5 | '87 190E 2.3-16 |
Old 06-22-2011, 07:48 AM
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At this point I'd buy twelve 2.5" long stainless steel or regular steel 8.8 hardness 8x1.25mm bolts and cut the heads off with a cut off wheel on a die grinder.
Clamp them in a bench vise to hold them or screw them into something heavy while cutting the heads off.
Then bevel the sharp edge of the cut a little with the side of the spinning cut off wheel or a grinding wheel while twirling the new stud you just made in your fingers to make the small bevel even all the way around. Screw in the stud with your cut edge inwards bottoming it out snug and use plenty of anti seize on the threads so it can be removed if you want.

Some people say don't use regular stainless steel studs because they can gall but I've done this with the 4 studs on the hot side of the turbo with antiseize and had no problem so I'd be tempted to try it with the exhaust port studs and see how it works.

enjoy your new studs.

You may be able to just buy the studs you want locally but sometimes they are hard to find and studs are usually more expensive than bolts so it's cheaper to buy the bolts and make studs out of them.
Get the bolts a little longer and you'll have 12 new short 8x1.25mm stainless or 8.8 bolts left over from the cut off part.
Old 06-22-2011, 07:56 AM
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+1 on above
Old 06-22-2011, 08:09 AM
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Jim... owing you some bierz when/if we ever meet - you've (patiently!) given me soooo much good advice this season, UDAMAN.

Heading to hardware store now, they've got stainless bolts @ 2-3/8" (thread length) - won't leave me w/ extra for 'bolts' left over but it's local, quick, cheap, and works. The 3/8's should allow me enough thread to taper the cut and still have 2.25"+ remaining.

HUGE THANKS, as always...
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Paul... CT | '87 930 | '08 M3 6gang vert |
past:

| '07 S6 | '98 M3 vert | '01 M5 | '96 993 C2 cab | '05 S600 Sport - biturbo V12@Just Not Right 495rwhp / 612rwtq |
| '58 TR3A | '01 S8 | '95 S6 6gang | '88 M5 | '87 190E 2.3-16 |
Old 06-22-2011, 08:38 AM
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I did the same thing. Measured my studs, looked at the ARP catalog, ordered the same length studs as came out of the heads, received the ARP studs. Found out that ARP INCLUDES the un-threaded portion of the stud in the length measurement. Called ARP and asked about a return, they said OK. Ordered the 57mm length, received the 57mm length. Happy camper.

Mark

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Old 06-22-2011, 08:37 PM
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