using a "coil pack" ignition

[WERK I]

Originally Posted by sjf911

No, they are not the same. The two posts create a closed loop negative to positive.

Steve,
Thanks. The diagram below illustrates what you just explained.

[ONQRACIng]

Steve, We ran two sets of these types of coils packs for our twin plug, and when we switched to a single plug application, we did not ground the unused tower,(we were running sequential fire) and the packs fried after 25 mins on track.. This is why we are looking at COP.. Easier to swap from single to twin plug apps..

[sjf911]

Originally Posted by ONQRACIng

Steve, We ran two sets of these types of coils packs for our twin plug, and when we switched to a single plug application, we did not ground the unused tower,(we were running sequential fire) and the packs fried after 25 mins on track.. This is why we are looking at COP.. Easier to swap from single to twin plug apps..

The fireworks inside the engine compartment must have been spectacular without grounding the unused posts.

[ONQRACIng]

Funny thing is, there was noly one arch, from #1 to #6 post, we capped it, but the internals were still not happy, lesson learned. Still looking for COP options, looks like the 2005-06 Kamasaki COPs are the best bet, and they are two wire and that is good, since I run igniters from the motec...

Just need the plug specs from Kawasaki now...

[James Brown]

still waiting for the ebay dirtbag to mail my Kawasaki COP to me. will try the "file" test and report back. looking better all the time!!

[ONQRACIng]

Just picked up a dozen 2 wire COPs, once they arrive, I will source the connectors and build the harness.

[James Brown]

Ok, let's recap, set to convert to EDIS with megajolt jr, ignition control. Nice and straight forward. But now, COP is looking good.heres what I have now plus the coil, coil wire, and shelded wire.

I have a Kow coil coming and THINK there triggered off 12v. SO, on the megajolt oitput there is 3 signals to trigger the coil (in 6cyl config.) that should trigger the COP just the same way the 6-coil pac is triggered. Only difference is where the coils are.
Am I on the right track or is the voltage too small for the coil(s)?
Megajolt is making a COP version but unknown release date. Here is a spec. sheet on the Megajolt COP:

Summary
Megajolt/COP is a Programmable Crank Fired ignition targeted for intelligent coil-on-plug modules or external igniter applications.
Capabilities
Supported configurations
Up to 8 cylinders in true coil-on-plug mode
Up to 12 cylinders in wasted spark mode
10K+ RPM capable
0.1 degree timing resolution
Features
Dual VR Sensor input
Crank Sensor + Cam Angle Sensor input
8 coil driver outputs
Soft and hard rev limit
Designed to work with commodity OEM sensors and coil packs
Initial support for 36-1 trigger wheel; other trigger wheel configurations to follow
up to 16x16 ignition map with linear interpolation
Dual, on the fly switchable ignition map support
4 User defined digital outputs
3 analog input channels
TPS, Temperature and Aux
Ignition correction for Temperature and Aux
Provision for on-board MAP sensor
On-board expansion for knock sensor module
32 bit 48Mz ARM processor
USB programming interface
Note that it works in wasted spark and sequentical.

[Walt Fricke]

Working backward on the question of whether an HPV-1 (or later version, including the EFI one like TEC3) would fire a COP, I tried to get specs on the HPV-1 and later coils.

The following are listed as replacements for what certain GM motors used, and so will will plug into an HPV/TEC3 base:

Accel 140017
MSD 8224
ACDelco D555
Standard DR-39X
Wells C849.

The Accel spec is 0.5 ohms primary, 8.0K ohms secondary, 45KV spark, 75:1 turns ratio.

Same specs for MSD are 0.35/7.8K, 40K, 80:1, and 4.2 mH.

Wells: 0.2-0.7/6-11K.

Without looking at one, I think from something else that these are two wire coils, and use nominal 12V triggered supplies. The TEC3 manual asserts that its coil charging system is inductive, using long duration chargine, rather than capacitive, which uses short duration charging at higher than battery voltage.

The TEC3 manual shows the DFU units being protected by a 20A fuse, with a 12 gauge wire supplying one 3 coil/6 plug unit with its 12 volts. This is listed as a "full time 12V source (9 amps)." Each of those units also gets three additional wires, one for each coil. These wires are 18 gauge, and all three are bundled within a shield. They are denominated as "Ground Pulse" for their respective coils. These are "pull to ground" and the outputs float when the coils fire, with no connection to ground or power per the manual. And the DFU unit itself is separately grounded.

The TEC3 computer only gets a 2A fuse, and 20 gauge wire, suggesting one could not do away with the DFU base, just the coils that sit on it, if running COP off of it. Which would be the same as using an HPV-1, where all the brains and most of the adjustments are in the base plate.

Looks like actual specs for these COP units are hard to come by? But at least one works from a 12V 2 wire?

The nifty WeaponX units look like this might be a bit expensive, especially for twin plug systems, at $60 or so each? I didn't see any specs for them, though.

The TEC3 manual, by the way, shows how to use the coils in a non-waste spark configuration: Ground the unused plug wire terminal with a 16 gauge wire.

Walt

[WERK I]

I made a few mods to the drawing above and put the correct firing order and coil pack identification for the HPV-1 on Porsche 911. The 'x's are the junction points where the COP leads would be wired to the wasted spark COP lead.

The thing that makes me very nervous is the impedance of the primary and secondary windings. Notice the Primary Windings of the COP are wired in series and the Secondary Windings are wired in series for their Wasted Spark counterparts.

[James Brown]

Testing the Kawasaki coil with a 12v charger and got good spark out of it. Charger drops to 9v when it's sparking so might have to get a better power supply. This is the 2 wire coil.

this might work with my EDIS setup.

[ONQRACIng]

OK, Spoke to the Engineers at Motec in Cali, and my setup will run these ZX6 coils no problem, just need to adjust the settings in the ECU software for the coils to 1.6ms, no brainer. I have a set of Bosch 3 channel ignitors on their way, and when I swap to the twin plug 3.7, I have 6 more coils on hand, 12 total, and can run them in wasted spark. The other option in the BERU coils from the 997 or the SUV, they will run direct off my expander, no ignitors needed, but, there is a small fit issue I am hearing with these coils..

[sjf911]

Originally Posted by ONQRACIng

OK, Spoke to the Engineers at Motec in Cali, and my setup will run these ZX6 coils no problem, just need to adjust the settings in the ECU software for the coils to 1.6ms, no brainer. I have a set of Bosch 3 channel ignitors on their way, and when I swap to the twin plug 3.7, I have 6 more coils on hand, 12 total, and can run them in wasted spark. The other option in the BERU coils from the 997 or the SUV, they will run direct off my expander, no ignitors needed, but, there is a small fit issue I am hearing with these coils..

Why not run sequential?

[safe]

Originally Posted by sjf911

Why not run sequential?

No need to waste 3 outputs from the box that could be used for something better.

[ONQRACIng]

I would need to add an ignition Expander inorder to run the 12 coils in sequential mode, just as effective to have the top plugs fire sequential, and the lowers fire in waisted off the tops.

[ONQRACIng]

to clarify, the M48 ECU has only one output for ignition, so there is an 8 channel expander being used (MOtec IEX), and from there the 6 outputs leads will feed the 2-3 channel ignitors, which in turn will fire the 6 plugs in the single plug application in sequential mode, then I can add the lower coils, and split the respective ignitor feed to fire the lowers in waisted mode..
Whew.. OR I may grab the 997 coils, unload the ignitors and just run them off the expanders 6 channels split.. Just looking for fit info on the 997 coils on air cooled heads/valve covers..

[PFM]

ONQRacing,

You might want to re-think that wasted spark on the lower plugs, if it is the lower plug of the same cylinder making power it is a bad thing. The wasted spark deal is based on firing the plug gap on the opposite cylinder because it is easy to fire while not on compression.

PFM

[jonesb930]

It would be better to fire two channels on the ignitor from one output of the ignition expander and keep it simple. You would just need two more 3 channel ignitors. Verify with motec but this should work. I know you can fire two Denso 580's (they have a built in ignitor) from one output.

Here are some pictures of how the Beru 997 COP's fit: Please note these are fully seated in the opening and on the plug.







Bottom Fitment: I did not have plugs installed but this is what it looks like pushed all the way in until it hits the valve cover.

e

[ONQRACIng]

Thanks Bill,
This may be the ticket for us, this setup will allow a true sequenqial fire, and the fit is not as bad as I imagined. I can fab an aluminum piece that goes cross stud, to ensure there is no wiggle on the COPs. These require NO ignitor, therefore that is one less item to fail....

I may have 12 KAWI coils on the market now......

PFM, I agree with you imput, there will be only sequential fire on the twin plug.

Thanks

[0396]

Very educational!

[ONQRACIng]

I know this is not the correct forum for this but, since we are going to use the 997 stuff on the race car, since looks do not matter on the track to us, we are selling our 12 KAWASAKI ZX6R Coils..

PM for details..

Bill.... You gonna unload the Boxter ones????? HMMM>>>>

I will also post in the for sale forum...

Andrew