The greatest puzzle (R12S idle)

[peter f]

Originally Posted by Fenring

That's pretty cool. You do CAD professionally?

Bad news:

Yes, since I'm an Architect (supposedly, he he). In fact when designing Projects worth the name...er...you are flirting with MCAD domain(s) as well (special building parts//components/etc). To tell you the truth I'm more involved with AEC CAD development (with Bentley Systems, NOT that Bentley, he he) especially with stuff related with non rectilinear geometry and/or dependent modeling (Generative Components - Google that thing). Apps in use in my office: CATIA, UGS, Microstation, Rhino, T-Splines and other weird and mysterious (ugly) stuff.

Ugly news:

The greatest challenge these days is designing Energy Efficient Projects...I mean with some kind of algorithm involved and not just putting silly -save the Planet now - ideas without any proof about investment break even point and such "trivial" stuff.

Good news:

Anyone can do Architecture, even Architects

He He

[peter f]

Originally Posted by 2wheelmike

Peter,
How are you capturing your data with the GS-911? I have one with blue-tooth connection to my blackberry. However, it doesn't have nearly as much of an interface as connected directly via USB to the laptop. That said, it would be easy to put a laptop in a tank bag and make runs on the road as you desire. If I can get a small enough laptop, I could try on my R12S, which as far as I know, idles correctly (1200+/-25 rpm).

Er...

...the gizmo is not mine (my friend Kyriakos has it, he rides a R1200C, call me James, James Bond). No idea what exactly GS911 is (with regard non cable communication capabilities).

Kyriakos use a conventional wired (USB) laptop to gizmo connection. Me? I hate mobiles, palmtops, laptops et all (but I do like pro Workstations for CAD etc).

If no new ideas with the new logs (in a while) could been provided, I'll try some ride-and-log stuff.

Catch Numero uno: how you start/stop the log procedure while riding? I mean, in my case the ideal situation could be to start recording some seconds before a stop in a traffic light, catch the "normal" running behavior AND the erratic (and/or dying) idle when halting the bike, stop recording, ride some miles more, repeat.

[peter f]

OK,

2 more logs are ready: one with the L-sensors in place,



And another (as Anton suggested) with these L-eliminators (L=1) in place. of course idle is pig ugly in both cases (meaning that there's no L related cause ??).



Original xls (from csv) files are here:

RapidShare: 1-CLICK Web hosting - Easy Filehosting

More analysis (charts et all in a while)

[Fenring]

Originally Posted by peter f

Bad news:

Yes, since I'm an Architect (supposedly, he he). In fact when designing Projects worth the name...er...you are flirting with MCAD domain(s) as well (special building parts//components/etc). To tell you the truth I'm more involved with AEC CAD development (with Bentley Systems, NOT that Bentley, he he) especially with stuff related with non rectilinear geometry and/or dependent modeling (Generative Components - Google that thing). Apps in use in my office: CATIA, UGS, Microstation, Rhino, T-Splines and other weird and mysterious (ugly) stuff.

Ugly news:

The greatest challenge these days is designing Energy Efficient Projects...I mean with some kind of algorithm involved and not just putting silly -save the Planet now - ideas without any proof about investment break even point and such "trivial" stuff.

Good news:

Anyone can do Architecture, even Architects

He He

--- begin "shameless plug" mode ---

Them Generative Components sound interesting. I've always wondered how people dare build modern architectural designs when sometimes you have a feeling that there's no way something shaped like that could support itself, beautiful as it may be.

I'm in CG myself and I've heard of Catia and Microstation, but don't use them, no matter how cool modeling with solids is. I've used Rhino on occasion, and it's a pretty decent nurbs modeler, but not really useful in my line of work, which mostly consists of doing post-production for lame-ass cheap-o TV commercials and such. I do enjoy industrial design though, but rarely have the time and opportunity.

At the risk of sounding presumptuous, I started my own business last year and am looking to expand my clientele, so if you or your associates might be in need of a viz guy, I might like to take a stab at it.

--- end "shameless plug" mode ---

Back OT:
One thing that crossed my mind about this idle problem is that it might be related to the fuel quality. Ofc. this is just pure speculation, but I got the feeling that whenever I got served "lesser" fuel and there would be some knocking during stop-go urban riding, the idle problems were more likely to occur as well. I don't know if fuel quality is an issue in Greece, but around these parts it is, more often than not.

[peter f]

Originally Posted by Fenring

At the risk of sounding presumptuous, I started my own business last year and am looking to expand my clientele, so if you or your associates might be in need of a viz guy, I might like to take a stab at it.

--- end "shameless plug" mode ---

Back OT:
One thing that crossed my mind about this idle problem is that it might be related to the fuel quality. Ofc. this is just pure speculation, but I got the feeling that whenever I got served "lesser" fuel and there would be some knocking during stop-go urban riding, the idle problems were more likely to occur as well. I don't know if fuel quality is an issue in Greece, but around these parts it is, more often than not.

Let's talk serious stuff first: With regard viz in general (at least in my AEC field) I'm trying to convince Bentley to go for this stunning way of thinking (download some examples, they are really worthy ):

Welcome! - Quest3D

Reason? Forget Clients/Investors/Banks/etc > Visualize the construction live: this is the future of constructing Projects. Even if the workforce is in the very low end of the spectrum (as is in Dubai for instance) imagine the profits if they can get even a 5% of what they are involved into.

And with regard that idle thing: AT LAST, I'm lucky enough to capture a log that clearly indicates a very lean Cyl 2 situation (graphs shown are with OEM L-sensors).










Now...what kind of bad RON 100 fuel (a given fact in Greece, he he) can cause this? Note: L-sensors and Injectors changed positions (cyl2>cyl1) > always the cyl 2 is the guilty thing.

So, assuming that the Fuel part of the equation is OK...only the Air part could cause this...BUT...the idle actuator in cyl 2 has changed last week. A defective cyl 2 Throttle body housing? a "vibrating" butterfly?

More analysis (L-eliminators in place, L=1) later.

[peter f]

And here's the graphs with L-eliminators in place (a constant L=1 send to BMS-K).





This is something that I don't get it: how's possible with the L=1 steady signal?

[peter f]

The interesting (?) thing with these rather BAD readings (case : L-sensors log2 shown) is the naif/bad design of the whole BMS-K "error/fault management" capability:

I mean whilst is rather obvious that "something" is going rather bad in cyl2, no warning message is displayed in I-Cluster, nor any kind of fault code (BMS-K inquired via GS911) is stored in memory. What it happens actually is that the BMS-K is trying to handle a hopeless situation that can't been handled.

It's not a mystery why the extremely slow responding GT-1 super gizmo (kinda) can't report anything bad.

Who designed the system? Was he (or she) some graduate student?

[peter f]

And here's the graphs for Idle actuator(s) position for the latest 2 logs (still identical values, meaning that something very bad is going here - Idle re calibrated but no avail)

[AntonLargiader]

Have you tried swapping a few parts side-to-side and see if the problem moves? Injectors, maybe sensors?

OTOH you seem to assume that replacing the throttle bodies will help, so maybe you already have a clear idea of where the problem is.

Could someone else log the same thing and verify that the idle actuators move together at all times?

[peter f]

Originally Posted by AntonLargiader

Have you tried swapping a few parts side-to-side and see if the problem moves? Injectors, maybe sensors?

OTOH you seem to assume that replacing the throttle bodies will help, so maybe you already have a clear idea of where the problem is.

Could someone else log the same thing and verify that the idle actuators move together at all times?

Hi Anton,

Well I've swapped injectors and idle actuators (no avail). Appears that the GS911 gizmo "locked" the idle actuators for good: every test gives identical values a rather faulty situation (some BMS-K parameter set to "NO thanks" - no GT-1 reset is possible). With regard TB replacement (as a hypothetical solution) read this >

Idle actuators VS me VS R12S

As I said, a lunatic here in Greece got the whole TB R12S combo (Italian e-bay) and installed it on his GS (THE art of pointless, if you want power buy a Multistrada). Against all odds it worked (some German said to swap the 1 <> 4 connectors in the TPS) but he destroyed his cyl2 ... due to some monumental bad luck (don't ask).

In theory I could borrow his TB while he waits for cyl2 to arrive from Austria, in reality my nerves are broken.

Other than that, let's hope that someone else could be kind enough and post here some scanned idle data from a healthy R12S.

[AntonLargiader]

Originally Posted by peter f

In theory I could borrow his TB while he waits for cyl2 to arrive from Austria, in reality my nerves are broken.

If the TBs are available to you, it's the obvious logical move. But if you're finished with it, OK.

[peter f]

Update (25-Sept-2012)

Long time to post something here (idle problem persists), so here's an update:

1. Found a BMW mechanic who's willing to apply the trial and error approach on that crap bike of mine (I don't ride it any more - but I'll do the search in the name of science, he he). He has a GS911 as well as a GT1 - so we can trace EFI parameters in exactly the same way if (?) and when(?) the issue is fixed (?????).

2. He swaps EFI components (other than the ECU and the CEU) when he's in the mood to do it - not very often I confess. Components (sensors et all) are sourced from other R12 bikes (they are the same in pretty much all the cases - TPS wiring order apart).

3. I'll post here his final finding(s).

BTW: if you have the chance to test ride a Panigale, do it ASAP.

Moral: the whole thing is pointless (and therefor useful).

[AZ-J]

Originally Posted by EenyBear

I'm sorry to say my R1200S starts up instantly every time, idles perfectly for as long as I need it to, never stutters or stalls, and all the flat spots other complain about do not exist.

I have a cat-less header, out-of-the-box-settings on a Techlusion device, stock air filter, battery tender... and I use Chevron 94 with Techron (98 RON) as it is the highest octane fuel available locally.

Oh yeah... custom seat, frequent waxing (bike), and a carbon hugger... and good karma apparently.

There is a good parallel post by "backwoodsboy" describing his solution to this....

Ian

Eeny, must be the red/silver bikes. Mine rides fine, idles fine as well.

[peter f]

Update (1-Oct-2012)

1. Guru reported that found : (1) left L-sensor, (2) oil temp sensor, (3) TPS "misbehaving". GT-1 reported that everything is OK mind. I said: this means 450E (min) for new sensors? or 56E (max) for used ones? (No clear answer provided).

2.Guru invited me for a test ride (note: RapidNothing disconnected completely).

3. When I arrived on site idle was good thus I took the bike for a ride. Idle problem reappeared after a couple of miles (engine fully hot) but I do confess that the all overall engine behavior is "better" somehow.

Guru said: I can't fight a bad Karma thus big. Go away (and stay away).

[peter f]

Update (3-Oct-2012)

1. Armed with 2 bottles (Tequila and Ouzo) I had some brainstorming with Guru. In fact much of the talking was about the 1199 Panigale engine (what a marvel) and the pointless TTX "elecrokinematic" suspension (what a waste of cash).

2. Appears that the oil temp sensor was "misbehaving" from day one.

3. Guru suspects the HPE headers for the L-havoc: they put the L closer to the head compared with the ugly OEM headers (narrow band sensors are performing in an equally narrow temp range).

4. Guru says that TPS is 100% crap engineering wise. Just a potentiometer worth 1.34 Euros that BMW sells for 134 Euros. Hall effect aftermarket anyone?

5. PS: Guru says that RapidNothing is kinda 3rd marriage. If you want power buy a Ducati.

[victorlaszlo]

Fixed mine: Rough running R12S - Page 3 - www.boxertrix.com

[Droptarotter]

So to fix this, you replaced a stepper motor? One or both?
Please recap what the bad stepper motor did to indicate it was faulty.

Cheers