think GM has problems now?

[RWebb]

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/02/business/global/02electric.html?em

[enzo1]

Dad always said be scared of China!

[VincentVega]

but by skipping the current technology, China hopes to get a jump on the next.

Sort of like the rest of the world did with cellphones.

If/when batteries are ready or charging systems are ubiquitous this could be a reality. I wonder if the Chinese will own the electric technology or the entire transport/car market?

[1967 R50/2]

China is already in the lead.

1. First off, anyone who has ever been to China knows that the streets are filled will electric bicycles and scooters. They produce something like 20 million a year. Increasingly, many of them are lithium powered. And no, not all lithium batteries burn like a sony and yes they can be recycled. It is a natural segue from 2 wheels to 4.

2. Google BYD. This company will probably be first to market a FULL electric car. Not an experiment, not a prototype. They are also the 2nd largest battery manufacturer in the world, so no belly ache-ing about how it can't be done. No internal interests arguing for the superiority of internal combustion engines.

Want more? Warren Buffett owns 10% of BYD , and he rarely makes mistakes.

And BYD is only ONE of a multitude of Chinese car manufacturers.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

And we keep handing them the resources to whip our asses with.

Simply astonishing the level of stupidity in this country today.

One can only hope that protectionism is enacted before it's too late, but I seriously doubt it will be.

[RWebb]

Originally Posted by enzo1

Dad always said be scared of China!

Yeh - and he was Chinese!

[RWebb]

Originally Posted by Chris Martin

Sort of like the rest of the world did with cellphones.

If/when batteries are ready or charging systems are ubiquitous this could be a reality. I wonder if the Chinese will own the electric technology or the entire transport/car market?

- It would be cool if we could steal their intellectual property instead of the other way around...

[the]

Originally Posted by RWebb

- It would be cool if we could steal their intellectual property instead of the other way around...

wouldn't that be definition mean we would be stealing stolen intellectual property?

[dd74]

When Tianjin-Qingyuan puts its entirely battery-powered Saibao midsize sedan on sale this autumn, the body will come from a sedan that normally sells for $14,600 when equipped with a gasoline engine. But the engine and gas tank will be replaced with a $14,000 battery pack and electric motor, said Wu Zhixin, the company’s general manager.

That means the retail price will nearly double, to almost $30,000. Even if the government awards the maximum subsidy of $8,800 to buyers, that is a hefty premium.

Large-scale production could drive down the cost of the battery pack and electric motor by 30 or 40 percent, still leaving electric cars more expensive than gasoline-powered ones, Mr. Wu said.

So who in China can afford to buy this technology, let alone charge it as most people live in apartments?

Honestly, something doesn't add up. I think BYD and Mr. Wu already know they'll probably export this thing to Europe and America, where as has been proven before with Chinese economics, a country that is a "laggard" is fair game for Chinese profit. In the meantime, China's own people will be left in their smoggy lurch.

Whatever...

I'd rather walk than buy a Chinese electric car.

[stealthn]

Don't worry the U.S. would ban them fearing that kids would lick the lead paint

[berettafan]

Originally Posted by dd74

When Tianjin-Qingyuan puts its entirely battery-powered Saibao midsize sedan on sale this autumn, the body will come from a sedan that normally sells for $14,600 when equipped with a gasoline engine. But the engine and gas tank will be replaced with a $14,000 battery pack and electric motor, said Wu Zhixin, the company’s general manager.

That means the retail price will nearly double, to almost $30,000. Even if the government awards the maximum subsidy of $8,800 to buyers, that is a hefty premium.

Large-scale production could drive down the cost of the battery pack and electric motor by 30 or 40 percent, still leaving electric cars more expensive than gasoline-powered ones, Mr. Wu said.

So who in China can afford to buy this technology, let alone charge it as most people live in apartments?

Honestly, something doesn't add up. I think BYD and Mr. Wu already know they'll probably export this thing to Europe and America, where as has been proven before with Chinese economics, a country that is a "laggard" is fair game for Chinese profit. In the meantime, China's own people will be left in their smoggy lurch.

Whatever...

I'd rather walk than buy a Chinese electric car.

Amen.

[red-beard]

The good news about this is that adding emmision controls and scrubbing equipment to coal fired plants is a lot easier than doing the same with a lot of cars.

The Chinese are also going towards clean coal technology (Coal Gasification). The efficiency of the clean coal plants can get within a few percent of natural gas fired plants, if done properly. The initial cost is way higher, though.

The Chinese, while they are going through growing pains, are no where near as bad as we were. And they have the benefit of modern technology, which we did not when we industrialized. China ALWAYS lead the world. It was only for the last 500 years that they closed themselves off from the rest of the world.

[Christien]

Interesting article. I do hope they make them safe for the north american market so we can get them here. I smell a great business opportunity. I think it would take a while to catch on, but with gas prices here at 84c/L (about $2.60/gallon) practical electric cars would likely sell well. They'd need to make them faster than 60mph though.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

Originally Posted by dd74

I'd rather walk than buy a Chinese electric car.

I can admire that sentiment but...

"you say that now..."

I bet if you were SERIOUSLY confronted with that decision - which is probably more of a real possibility than people might think in the coming years - you would (as would most people) rationalize their way into the Chinese electric car. Nothing personal, but it just bothers me when people make these high-minded statements from a position of convenience (i.e. "we're not REALLY confronting that decision right now").

If those REALLY were the only two choices - as they very well might be in a few years - I bet most people saying that would simply shrug, come up with some kind of convenient rationalization and do what was easy, not what was right.

[azasadny]

I thinking my "retirement" will be spent in a Chinese labor camp...

[berettafan]

not me POP. battery powered cars are a totally false economy. bogus. the concept is cute and novel but that's about it.

a REAL solution to oil dependence IS hydrogen. not a question in the world. i don't take the involvement of certain for profit companies or other gov'ts as evidence of suitability.

sooo many people are watching this issue and ready to jump behind and swear lifelong allegience to whatever technology the US Gov't shows an interest in.

i say again, ELECTRICITY IS NOT IN ABUNDANCE. like i said on the tesla thread, we are constantly being told/asked to reduce our electricity usage in every way possible. common sense tells you this is NOT the answer.

[Christien]

Originally Posted by berettafan

not me POP. battery powered cars are a totally false economy. bogus. the concept is cute and novel but that's about it.

a REAL solution to oil dependence IS hydrogen. not a question in the world. i don't take the involvement of certain for profit companies or other gov'ts as evidence of suitability.

sooo many people are watching this issue and ready to jump behind and swear lifelong allegience to whatever technology the US Gov't shows an interest in.

i say again, ELECTRICITY IS NOT IN ABUNDANCE. like i said on the tesla thread, we are constantly being told/asked to reduce our electricity usage in every way possible. common sense tells you this is NOT the answer.

I think you're probably right, but what about using hydrogen to generate electricity for the grid, rather than for individual end users? It makes much more sense to use the existing infrastructure, rather than reinvent the wheel.

[dd74]

Originally Posted by Porsche-O-Phile

I can admire that sentiment but...

"you say that now..."

I bet if you were SERIOUSLY confronted with that decision - which is probably more of a real possibility than people might think in the coming years - you would (as would most people) rationalize their way into the Chinese electric car. Nothing personal, but it just bothers me when people make these high-minded statements from a position of convenience (i.e. "we're not REALLY confronting that decision right now").

If those REALLY were the only two choices - as they very well might be in a few years - I bet most people saying that would simply shrug, come up with some kind of convenient rationalization and do what was easy, not what was right.

Wanna bet?

I'm all for high-minded decisions when it comes to more foreign power influencing where and on what we spend our money. Whether it's our own country's fault or not, the fact cannot be mitigated that China has raped us economically for a long time, and will continue to do so regardless of us being in a recession/depression.

And no, I cannot and will not rationalize any large purchase such as an electric car when it comes from China. Why should I let myself fall to that level in lieu of America more likely producing comparable, if not better technology?

Yeah, GM, Chrysler, even Ford ****ed up - but not all of GM, Chrysler and Ford should take the hit. When the Big Three build an electric vehicle that suits my lifestyle, I'll most definitely give them a first look before the Chinese.

I feel I should support my own country, its corporations and workers, especially now.

[dd74]

Originally Posted by Christien

I think you're probably right, but what about using hydrogen to generate electricity for the grid, rather than for individual end users? It makes much more sense to use the existing infrastructure, rather than reinvent the wheel.

Part of the problem is the grid. How many grids are outdated/in disrepair? I know SoCal has had problems with outdated grids for at least 20 years.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

Bravo to ya'! I hope it's true. I'd like to say the same thing but until I'm actually confronted with that scenario I can't say what I'd do. I'd like to think I would also "just walk" but it'd be hard - I admit it. But like you, I certainly would do my damnedest to avoid giving any more money to the Chinese. I hope I'd have the intestinal fortitude to stick to my guns. I really do, but until it happens I can't guarantee it.

Easy to say, hard to do when one has a sick relative to care for, a job to go to, etc.