Let's talk Tesla again.

[ckissick]

Read the attached article and tell me why a good-looking, $50,000, 4-door sedan with a relatively decent range won't sell. Their 2-seater has a very limited market but this car should appeal to a lot of people.

Tesla Model S "Will Be Faster Than A Porsche 911" - Yahoo! Autos

[porsche4life]

I'm excited to see more about it, and I hope for the sake of progress that it is successful.

[island911]

" $49,900 (after U.S. Federal Tax Credit) " of course...

"The oil companies said electric cars can't work, but the truth is, they don't want them to work," Musk said.

Note the artful way of Not saying that they do work

[island911]

Also, with a top speed of only 130mph, just which Porsche 911 is it faster than?


note :

. When production began in 1964, the 911 had a 2-liter, 6-cylinder engine, 130 hp, a top speed of 130 mph,

Maybe one of the 1968 sportomatic 911T's was only good for 129mph. maybe.

ah, progress

[KaptKaos]

"Racing improves the breed."

All of these claims and improvements mean nothing until they start racing these things.

[svandamme]

There's a dude on our parking lot that has a Tesla.. he can only drive it to work every so often when he is absolutely sure that he has no detours to make, else he can't make it home on a charge.

[svandamme]

Originally Posted by KaptKaos

"Racing improves the breed."

All of these claims and improvements mean nothing until they start racing these things.

Agreed, and in my opinion that's where F1 should come in.
They oughto change the rules so innovation is no longer penalized
and instead penalize fuel consumption get's extra weight or time handicapped.


They always said, if the F1 engineers put their mind to it, they can make cars run on water.. Well, somebody put their mind to it already!

[Porsche-O-Phile]

" $49,900 (after U.S. Federal Tax Credit) " of course...

Caught that... And the fact that it's extra $$$ for the extended range packages. Question is - how much more $$$?

Also I really wonder about the viability of electric vehicles in anything other than naturally comfortable climates. Either electric resistance heaters or air conditioning compressors take a hell of a lot of juice to run; what's the REAL range on one of these cars when you have to climb into it on a cold morning and run the heat on full blast or on a hot afternoon when you have to run the a/c?

And the big question - what will this REALLY cost to get an "optioned" Tesla that will really be able to be used like any other car without worry? $90k out of pocket? $100k?

I love their cars and would definitely buy one as a "fun car"/toy but then again, if I want a toy (not a DD) why would I buy a sedan? Answer: I wouldn't. I'd buy a sports car. Which is why I think Tesla's getting rid of their roadster was an idiotic move. That car (especially with continually-improving performance and range) is one I could seriously have seen myself buying.

If big automakers and/or the oil companies don't kebash these guys and they can hang around for 10 more years, I'll bet they'll get the technology to a point where it can work commercially without subsidy. That'd be outstanding. Anything to curb oil/gas consumption is worth doing - as long as it can get to that point, and it sounds like these guys are well on the way to getting there.

[GH85Carrera]

The Tesla Roadster is based on a Lotus and it is a TINY car. I drove one at the track and it is fast and fun, but you don't get in the car you put it on. It would be OK for a 5.5 - 110 lb guy but that is not most American men.

The roadster cost more than a new 911 and has a very limited range.

[ckissick]

P-O-P makes very good points. I could live with a 200-mile range car; that's about the range of my Westy, and I never need more than that on a normal day. Can't take the Tesla camping, though.

But without subsidies, is it viable? Probably not. If investors could make a profit at some point, then wouldn't Tesla go through venture capitalists instead of Washington?

[island911]

in addition to the tax breaks, Washington (teamO) gave Tesla a half a Billion dollars in guaranteed loans. ...same for Fiskar. IOW, it's been raining money on these "green" (wink wink) business.

The big fault in the plan, is of course, the pesky fact that hydrocarbons are cheap and have a much higher energy density than battery packs.

[Zeke]

Tesla has all but run out of cars to install their components in because Lotus is out of production on the model. They better get ready to sell some sedans to survive because if they want to continue the roadster, they will have to tool up.

[jyl]

TSLA has raised a bunch of financing from the capital markets, more than from govt loan guarantees.

The roadster is going away because the shell is Lotus, it is very expensive to make, and TSLA has to focus on the models that it actually makes in-house.

The Model S looks like a hell of a car. Stupid expensive maybe but so is a Panamera or a 7-series.

[island911]

I think that they are over-hyping the performance. --a sign that they don't believe in it's merits.

I mean, promises of Porsche-beating performance, all for a govt subsidized $50k?

Why can't they just be honest? ... $50k (g-sub'd) will get you car that can eek-out a range of 160 miles, OR give a few fast bursts of 0-60 in 5.6_sec's OR touch on 130mph... OR carry four around in comfort.

...or does anyone believe that the $50k (g-sub'd) model will take a full load to 60mph in 5.6_sec's AND up to 130mph FOR 160 miles? --of course a Porsche can hit those combined metrics with ease, w/o an "either/or" compromise. But then the Porsche buyer pays big tax (sales & road) whereas the Tesla buyer gets a big govt subsidy.

[kaisen]

Same whiners complain about the Volt. They are ALL subsidized in one way or another by the US government and most states. Telsa is creating jobs, right here in the USA, in California where GM/Toyota idled a plant and laid off workers. Good for them.

[island911]

Originally Posted by kaisen

...Telsa is creating jobs, right here in the USA, in California where GM/Toyota idled a plant and laid off workers. Good for them.

Manufacturing cars in CA ... Wow, if that doesn't tell you something about the political/business decisions here, what would?

The good news is that they are green jobs - you know, where green gets laundered into campaigns. coughSolyndraCough

[onewhippedpuppy]

Nice promotional piece disguised as journalism. Until battery technology catches up, electric cars will be not be effective as anything but city cars and political statements. Every electric car review that I've read fails to meet the published range in real world driving.

[kaisen]

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

Every electric car review that I've read fails to meet the published range in real world driving.

Start reading. There are TONS of real-world range articles as many readers share your concerns. You'll find dozens of Volt and Leaf reviews that have specifically addressed and tested real-world range.

[onewhippedpuppy]

Originally Posted by kaisen

Start reading. There are TONS of real-world range articles as many readers share your concerns. You'll find dozens of Volt and Leaf reviews that have specifically addressed and tested real-world range.

Probably, but I tend to doubt a car review written by username iluvpuppies on some Yahoo chat room. I'm referring to professional journalists.

I also don't lump the Volt into the same boat, because you can always fill it up with gas in any podunk town. But until pure electrics can get better than 100 miles worth of range, they're not going to be relevant for anything other than city commuting.

[kaisen]

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

Probably, but I tend to doubt a car review written by username iluvpuppies on some Yahoo chat room. I'm referring to professional journalists.

I also don't lump the Volt into the same boat, because you can always fill it up with gas in any podunk town. But until pure electrics can get better than 100 miles worth of range, they're not going to be relevant for anything other than city commuting.

Edmunds Inside Line has put over 10,000 miles on their long-term Volt (purchased off the showroom floor).... I'm guessing Scott Oldham isn't a journalist? He's a friend of mine. Anyway, the Volt's EPA range (electric only) is rated at 35.0 miles. Edmunds has averaged 38.4 miles TESTED RANGE over 10,000 miles of real-world driving.

2011 Chevrolet Volt: 10,000-mile Recap

"We recently broke the 10,000-mile barrier in our 2011 Chevrolet Volt. What's happened so far? A faulty charging cable sent us to the dealer and Chevy announced it was lowering the price of new Volts. That's it. Oh, unless you consider it's fuel economy noteworthy...

To date we've driven 3,946 miles on electricity and 6,054 on gasoline. For the sake of argument, let's call that a 40/60 split. At just 40 percent, our utility factor is low.

According to the SAE, a vehicle with a projected electric range of 35 miles should be spending closer to 58 percent of the time on electricity. We drive the Volt like a normal car. So a handful of long distance, gasoline-only trips to Las Vegas and San Francisco have influenced this factor adversely.

On the electricity front, we are performing better than estimates. Note here that this is a measure of consumption. At 33.7 kWh/100 miles we are actually using less than the 36.0 kWh the EPA expects.

Gasoline efficiency isn't quite as positive. Our 34.2 mpg average is a fair amount worse than EPA estimates. But we've seen it reach into the 40s under the right conditions.

The total cost per mile to own our Volt thus far is surprising. We used the California (CA) and national (N'tl) averages for electricity and gasoline prices to calculate the cost/mile. These figures do not include any maintenance, simply fuel. Here in Santa Monica the Chevy cost us 9.1 cents per mile to operate. For reference, a Toyota Prius would cost considerably less, 7.7 cents per mile. The Prius figure assumes its 50-mpg EPA rating, though we've yet to back that up through testing. Nevertheless, it gives you something to chew on for comparison.

Mike Schmidt, Vehicle Testing Manager @ 10,000 miles"