Common Notion: Racking a Pump 12 Gauge Will Scare Off a Bad Guy.

[black_falcon]

[targa911S]

Originally Posted by CurtEgerer

I had the misfortune 2 weeks ago to defend my family/home from a perp trying to break/kick my front door down at 2 in the morning. It is a VERY long story, but the relevant part to this thread is that I drew my handgun on this piece of human debris through a narrow sidelite alongside the door. When he saw the gun (and my dog who is a large doberman mix), he began sobbing 'don't shoot me man, I have kids at home!' He curled up in a fetal position on my front porch and was apprehended by law enforcement shortly thereafter. Later he squirmed away from them and a chase ensued with him eventually being tazed 3-4 times in my yard - all this during a severe ice storm. I live in a very quiet, low-crime area. It proved to me that your gun(s) should always be in a place where it is quickly accessible to you, loaded, and ready to fire (mine always are). There was very little time to think, much less unlock and load a weapon.

There ya go. A real world encounter. All you guys who think the sound of racking a pump shotgun will scare him off and act as a warning shot gotta get real about what is going on. If you really don't want to kill an invader and just want to disable them for a time, use rubber buckshot, but you don't have time in the real thing to play the "do you know what this sound is?" game.

[onewhippedpuppy]

Originally Posted by targa911S

There ya go. A real world encounter. All you guys who think the sound of racking a pump shotgun will scare him off and act as a warning shot gotta get real about what is going on. If you really don't want to kill an invader and just want to disable them for a time, use rubber buckshot, but you don't have time in the real thing to play the "do you know what this sound is?" game.

It's only one anecdote, but it also shows that the average thief isn't breaking into your home SWAT style with flash bangs and an MP5. Most are like this, just a stupid drugged up coward. If possible I would much rather scare off the unarmed crackhead vs the "guns blazing" approach that some advocate. I think having a death on your conscience would take some time to get over, even a justified one.

[RWebb]

how about a Browning Auto-5 with no plug (5 rounds) and a noise-maker on it that sounds like a Remington Pump?

[targa911S]

Man the Auto 5 is a big heavy gun..

[Baz]

The Four Rules of Gun Safety - Home Defense Gun

[berettafan]

But the white house wants to limit us to break action guns so in the future their dream is the bad guy would hear and be able to identify the action closing and run back to the safety of their gov't welfare checks, food stamps and obamaphones.....


I pity those people who actually ever fire a shotgun with a pistol grip. Jeebus is that not a fun thing to do.

[targa911S]

Originally Posted by berettafan

I pity those people who actually ever fire a shotgun with a pistol grip. Jeebus is that not a fun thing to do.

But it looks so cool.

[Z-man]

Originally Posted by Baz

The Four Rules of Gun Safety - Home Defense Gun

It is absolutely vital to keep these four rules in mind even in a home defense situation.

For those who feel using rubber bullets or rock salt is a good idea, consider this: I will gladly use those types of projectiles as long as the perp agrees to do the same. The chances of the perp agreeing with me are NONE. While I prefer NOT to use justifiable deadly force in a home defense situation, I prefer MORE that unlawful deadly force is NOT used on me.

The way I see it, there are three discussions here:
1. Do I warn the perp who broke in my house or not?
2. What condition do I keep my firearm in: locked and cocked (loaded, one in the chamber, safety on) or cruiser ready (hammer down, empty chamber, safety off), or some other setup...
3. Shotgun vs. handgun for home defense.

I think there are valid points to make for all combinations of the above, since home defense is a very situational scenario.

I have read that there are three measures to a good home defense argument in court: ability, opportunity, and jeopardy:
1. The perp has to have the ability to cause death or 'great bodily injury.' The perp may not need a gun to do this -- a 300 lb muscle laden doped up man with a pipe wrench in his hand can put a world of hurt on someone.
2. The perp has to have the opportunity to use deadly force or cause 'great bodily injury.' If the perp is outside my house and is not attempting to break in, he does not have the opportunity to do this.
3. I feel that my life is in jeopardy. The perp is not only in my house, but I feel that his intentions are to either kill me/my family or cause 'great bodily harm.'

I live in New Jersey, where gun ownership is frowned upon. (Law abiding citizens who own guns are essentially guilty until proven innocent when it comes to the draconian gun laws this state has). Thus, if someone broke into my house, and I used my weapon on them, EVEN if it was justifiable, I will still be arrested and charged.

The police headquarters of my town is less than a mile from my home, so the police are literally minutes from my home. However, when it takes only seconds for a perp to kill me, minutes away is too long.

So, given my situation of living in the state of NJ, if a perp is in my house, this may be how my scenario would play out:
1. Bring my firearm to the ready while my wife calls 911.
2. If it is nighttime, stay in our bedroom. We have no children, so we can easily take up a defensive stance in our room. If we are not in our bedroom, upon first evidence of threat, we retreat to our bedroom. (There are other scenarios too, of course)
3. Call out to perp - "Who are you? Get out of my house. The police are on the way. I have a gun."
4. If perp does not chose to leave, then I can assume that he has the ability and opportunity to kill us or cause great bodily harm to us. If he is moving towards us, our lives are now in jeopardy.
5. If that bedroom door opens, then justifiable deadly force will be used. No warning shot, no rubber bullets. Justifiable (and legal) deadly force.

My plan may not be the best plan, but I believe it improves my odds of survival, as well as improving my odds of staying out of jail. It is a plan - maybe not the best plan, but I have a plan. When someone is in my house and my adrenaline dump has taken place, I'd rather have some sort of plan to use than to rely on improvisation unless it is necessary to alter the plan. Consider your situation -- is your firearm locked and cocked? In cruiser ready mode? Do you have a shotgun or handgun? Optimize your plan for what tools and situation you have.

-Z

[BernieP]

Z man, you hit the nail on the head. If you shoot some one in your house you will likely be arrested and an investigation will start. You have defended your home now you must justify your actions to the DA. He or she will decide if you will be charged. Having 911 on an open line and telling the perp to get out ect. will go a long way to keep you out of jail. I've been told this from a seasoned defense attorney that has handled many of this type of case.

Bernie

[onewhippedpuppy]

Originally Posted by BernieP

Z man, you hit the nail on the head. If you shoot some one in your house you will likely be arrested and an investigation will start. You have defended your home now you must justify your actions to the DA. He or she will decide if you will be charged. Having 911 on an open line and telling the perp to get out ect. will go a long way to keep you out of jail. I've been told this from a seasoned defense attorney that has handled many of this type of case.

Bernie

Sad, but I know it is true in some places. In KS the bottom line is that someone breaking into your home is automatically considered a threat to your life, and you are justified in taking any action to stop them. Outside of the home gets much more complicated, as you must show that you had reason to fear for your life. Unfortunately this means you can't shoot car thieves.

[RWebb]

last week a guy in Coos bay blew away one (of two) burglars while they were running away - no charges filed

he'd scared them somehow then drew down and fired as they were running - cops told him: you really aren't supposed to do that; case closed

[onewhippedpuppy]

Years ago in my hometown there were two guys that got into an argument, one went home while the other went to the bar. The guy at the bar got loaded and then went to the other guy's home to continue the dispute. He was outside the front door yelling "I'm going to kill you" when he was shot multiple times through the door (cheapo mobile home) with a 12 gauge. No charges pressed, as he had reason to fear for his life.

[Z-man]

BTW: If you or your spouse calls 911, the first thing you should say is your address at least twice, especially if using a cell phone to call. Don't rely on the caller ID system of the police, and if you are in a panic or get disconnected, at least the police know where to go.

-Z-man.

[legion]

One nice thing about Illinois is that it is in effect a Castle Doctrine state by precedent*. In other words, if someone is in your home and you did not invite them, you may presume they are there to cause death or great bodily harm--deadly force is justified.

It's very rare for the homeowner to be arrested in these circumstances*.


*Except in Cook County, where people are subjects and not citizens.

[GH85Carrera]

In this state we can shoot an intruder with no warning. The law is named for Dirty Harry. It is called the "Make my Day" law. Really. Yes Really.

[onewhippedpuppy]

Originally Posted by GH85Carrera

In this state we can shoot an intruder with no warning. The law is named for Dirty Harry. It is called the "Make my Day" law. Really. Yes Really.

God bless the midwest, where things still make sense. If somebody breaks into your house it's a pretty safe assumption that he's not a bible salesman.

[RWebb]

just aim at them while they are running away and then yell "hey - free candy" - fire when they turn around

[onewhippedpuppy]

Originally Posted by RWebb

just aim at them while they are running away and then yell "hey - free candy" - fire when they turn around

Then drag them back inside, right?

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by Z-man

I have read that there are three measures to a good home defense argument in court: ability, opportunity, and jeopardy:
1. The perp has to have the ability to cause death or 'great bodily injury.' The perp may not need a gun to do this -- a 300 lb muscle laden doped up man with a pipe wrench in his hand can put a world of hurt on someone.
2. The perp has to have the opportunity to use deadly force or cause 'great bodily injury.' If the perp is outside my house and is not attempting to break in, he does not have the opportunity to do this.
3. I feel that my life is in jeopardy. The perp is not only in my house, but I feel that his intentions are to either kill me/my family or cause 'great bodily harm.'
-Z

This is precisely why we need (and many states are now passing) "stand your ground" or "castle doctrine" laws. The above is simply too much to consider when under that kind of stress. Sure, pretty easy to deconstruct after the fact, second guessing the home owner's every decision, every move, in the comfort of a courtroom with some career-climbing DA. In real time, "maybe" just might get the home owner and/or his loved ones killed. Thank God so many states have come to their senses and now side with the home owner.