Common Notion: Racking a Pump 12 Gauge Will Scare Off a Bad Guy.

[recycled sixtie]

Originally Posted by Gretch

"Shoot first ask questions later" Now there is a philosophy that has "a lot shades of backwards" with it.

One of my biggest frustrations in the hunting game is hunters who do not practice the ten commandments of gun safety. These straight forward rules make a lot of sense and anyone who owns a gun or even rents one at a shooting range should be able to spout off all ten by memory.

And hunting is a voluntary sport, (most of the time) where as self defense comes as a complete surprise and MUST be planned for.

Gretch that reminds me many years ago I was walking my white dog (part shepherd part samoyed - bushy tail sticking up in the air). This was cottage country in Northern Ontario in a quiet lane and the dog was running free. A couple of walkers came along and one said to me you better watch your dog. It could get shot. I said why and he said it looked like a wolf....unbelievable.

[Gretch]

agree blue sky, however, I don't recommend short cuts when teaching weapon handling to newbies......

At my range you learn all the rules and there are zero exceptions.

[matt711]

I have to agree that how you respond to taking a life depends on you. The problem is that you don't know how you will respond until after the fact. I have seen many people deal with this issue and was alwasy pretty surprised by how each person handled the situation. I was wrong at least half the time as far as how I thought the individual would handle the stress. This was after months of training with each person fully expecting to face the possibility of killing someone.

[Groesbeck Hurricane]

My thoughts go to training: NEVER pull a weapon unless you intend to use it.

Could people face charges in certain jurisdictions? "Biden's warning shot" is a first degree felony in his state, cyclying a round I believe is assault with deadly weapon (please, I could be wrong about this). The cycling indicates intent. If your life is not in danger why did you go to that extreme? If your life is in danger why did you not fully protect yourself?

Of course, if you keep the tool locked away and unloaded then cycling a round is unavoidable.

On my old, nasty 60 year old revolvers the safety is the hammer. Pull it back and point and click. Cycling rounds is surprisingly quick and easy even in a SAA. Distance (lack thereof to allow for your actions) is what works against you.

[Z-man]

In a home defense situation, if one hears a suspicious noise in one's house, and is able to arm himself, but has not been able to identify who is making the noise, I believe a firm and loud Who are you? Get out of my house! The police are coming! I have a gun! is sufficient to get that person's attention.

While you may reveal your location in your home (unless you pipe your message through an intercom system), I believe you setup the situation effectively to the intruder - whether that intruder is an innocent, or a perp: the way that person reacts to your message will determine the outcome of the situation.

If the intruder choses to attack you, hopefully you are in a defensive position (for you and others in the house) where you have the tactical advantage (effective cover, good line of sight...etc) and you have minimized the opportunity for the perp to gain the upper hand. If you need to move to another room (child's room, for example), hopefully have have prepared yourself and can effectively clear the space between you and the destination, and are prepared to take action if necessary.

To the experts out there -- is this a feasible situation, or a bad idea?

-Z

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

That is a nice segue into a question that I was going to ask. Of the "shoot first and ask questions later" crowd, how many of you have kids?

Well, I guess it's pretty clear from the way you phrased that that you believe some of the folks on this thread fit into this "'shoot first and ask questions later' crowd". I don't get that impression whatsoever from anyone here. I find it curious enough that you have somehow arrived at that impression, that I'm compelled to ask "how?". How on earth did you extract anything remotely like that from this thread?

[onewhippedpuppy]

Quote de onewhippedpuppy

That is a nice segue into a question that I was going to ask. Of the "shoot first and ask questions later" crowd, how many of you have kids?

Well, I guess it's pretty clear from the way you phrased that that you believe some of the folks on this thread fit into this "'shoot first and ask questions later' crowd". I don't get that impression whatsoever from anyone here. I find it curious enough that you have somehow arrived at that impression, that I'm compelled to ask "how?". How on earth did you extract anything remotely like that from this thread?

Relax Jeff, it was a joking way of expressing the no warning concept. I wasn't in any way implying that anyone here is an irresponsible cowboy. I don't think any of my responses to this thread have implied that.

[Jeff Higgins]

Thanks - you had me worried. I think we have a fairly responsible group of gun enthusiasts here on PPOT. I couldn't imagine any one of them thundering down the hall, sixguns a'blazin', and ending up with "sorry honey, I shot the kids..."

On a serious note, though, z-man has it spot on - bark out a clear, concise warning. Give 'em a second or two, then go blazin' down the hall...

[onewhippedpuppy]

I'm not worried, it's doubtful they get past the claymores in the yard.

[gnashings]

I have a lot of experience hunting with pump shotguns. Hunting is absolutely nothing like home defense. Get all the practice you want ontario canada, it will make very little difference when you have to respond in a panic, adrenalin dump, woke out of a sound sleep or what ever.



I agree with the premise that one should be very familiar with their choice of HD weapon, practice with it frequently ect. My point, which you missed completely in your know it all arrogance, is the fewer things that can go wrong the better one's odds are of coming out on top.



I choose the 930 auto loader after specing out my HD needs with careful thought and research over a period of about 18 months. I didn't want just ANY auto loader.



The advice was given with that thought and background experience, and I would give it again. It wasn't good advice for you......... I get that.

"Get all the practice you want..."- yup, actually practice and lots of it is exactly what you need most to perform under stress. You can't buy or automate your way out of that. That statement, along with your defensive insecurity pretty much tells me all I need to know.
Obviously compensating for something...

[afterburn 549]

I do not have time to read 5 pages and i am sure it has been said -
NEVER ever
load, point, rack aim
UNLESS YOU plan on following through....or it will just go very very bad for you.

[onewhippedpuppy]

Originally Posted by afterburn 549

I do not have time to read 5 pages and i am sure it has been said -
NEVER ever
load, point, rack aim
UNLESS YOU plan on following through....or it will just go very very bad for you.

Mentioned many times, can't be said enough. No such thing as an unloaded gun, don't point your gun at something you don't want to kill, finger off the trigger until you are ready to shoot, always know what is beyond your target. I repeat those rules to my son every time we go shoot.

[stuartj]

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

I read through that entire thread, lots of keyboard commandos that sleep with their eyes open and a Bowie knife between their teeth. Here's how I realistically see the situation.

I will be groggy, disoriented, and probably full of adrenaline. Oh yeah, and scared $h!tless. If you claim otherwise you are a liar and a fool.

I will have to grab my glasses to see.

I will have to grab my weapon.

I will have to figure out WTF is going on.

I will have to tell my wife, also likely in a state of panic, to call the police.

I will have to take up a defensive position.

That's a LOT that has to happen in a short period of time, and most of us won't be at our best.

It's also a damn good case for a revolver. I went to the range to shoot my CCH P938, got ready to shoot, pulled the trigger and......nothing. Safety off you dumbass. Yes I need more practice, but when under pressure it is really easy to make stupid mistakes. My 686+ gives me 7 chances worth of .357 Magnum and even I can't screw it up.

Ive been in similar position. A long time ago I walked into my apartment and found a guy about to walk out with my suitcase packed full of my stuff.

He ofcourse, had the complete advantage and if Id had a shotgun he'd have had that too.

As it was, we went at it in a big way, trashed the place even more, I kept most of my stuff and learnt that its very hard to stop someone who just wants to get away.

However twenty years later, we're both still alive. And by now I wouldn't be missing that VCR anyway.

[afterburn 549]

Originally Posted by Z-man

In a home defense situation, if one hears a suspicious noise in one's house, and is able to arm himself, but has not been able to identify who is making the noise, I believe a firm and loud Who are you? Get out of my house! The police are coming! I have a gun! is sufficient to get that person's attention.

While you may reveal your location in your home (unless you pipe your message through an intercom system), I believe you setup the situation effectively to the intruder - whether that intruder is an innocent, or a perp: the way that person reacts to your message will determine the outcome of the situation.

If the intruder choses to attack you, hopefully you are in a defensive position (for you and others in the house) where you have the tactical advantage (effective cover, good line of sight...etc) and you have minimized the opportunity for the perp to gain the upper hand. If you need to move to another room (child's room, for example), hopefully have have prepared yourself and can effectively clear the space between you and the destination, and are prepared to take action if necessary.

To the experts out there -- is this a feasible situation, or a bad idea?

-Z

Inthe world of the military, never give away your position..its not the tactile thing to do.
You might have to adjust your story to your attorney
AND, in this country it it used to be thought you just need a attorney when guilty..not so any more.!
What ever you say..might be worked against you

[matt711]

I think your best bet is to have the wife call 911, then ensure that your warnings to the intruder are loud enough to be picked up by the 911 dispatcher. That way if you are forced to shoot the guy there is evidence of the verbal warning prior to pulling the trigger.

As long as your state has some sort of castle doctrine I think your on safe ground if the person is actuall within your home when you shoot.

[HHI944]

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

I'm not worried, it's doubtful they get past the claymores in the yard.

I winder how screaming 'I see the light' compares to chambering a 12g?

[GH85Carrera]

Originally Posted by matt711

I think your best bet is to have the wife call 911, then ensure that your warnings to the intruder are loud enough to be picked up by the 911 dispatcher. That way if you are forced to shoot the guy there is evidence of the verbal warning prior to pulling the trigger.

As long as your state has some sort of castle doctrine I think your on safe ground if the person is actuall within your home when you shoot.

In this state if they are inside my house I can shoot them. No need to want them, I don't have to retreat, I just need to call the clean up crew after the cops haul the corpse away.

[Z-man]

Originally Posted by matt711

As long as your state has some sort of castle doctrine I think your on safe ground if the person is actuall within your home when you shoot.

Not necessarily. I believe even NJ has a castle doctrine in place, however, if the jeopardy to my life is no longer present, I cannot shoot. IE: If a perp is out the door, and my life is no longer in danger, I cannot shoot him in the back, even if he has taken my highly sought after 2nd generation iPad. One may argue that a person in my house, no matter where he is, or where the bullets enter constitutes a 'jeopardy' condition, but that may be hard to explain with a corpse in your entryway with entry wonds in his back.

As I stated, if you can prove the perp had the ability and opportunity to jeopardize your/your family's life, you have a good HD case. If the threat is gone (the guy is leaving), it will be difficult to show that your life is in jeopardy.

That said, if I have given him warning that he is to leave my home because I am armed, and he continues to come towards me (based on the location of my voice), then all three (ability, opportunity, jeopardy) can be easily proven, especially if 911 is listening on the other end. But if I am to give him a warning (and subsequently give away my location), I better be in a position where I have cover and a clear shot, and he does not. (IE: behind a dresser with a line of sight to the door which the perp has to go through to get to me.)

Regarding calling 911 -- the first thing I've learned to say is my address. Then if there is time, it would be helpful to describe what you look like, and what you are wearing, so when the police arrive, they will know who the homeonwer is. (ex: "I'm a 25 year old male, weigh 225 lbs, and am wearing Hello Kitty pajamas.") I've heard stories where a robber actually wore pajamas and a robe, and as he was leaving the home would tell the police that the perps are still in the house!

-Z-man.

[HHI944]

Elzie Pipkins, 63, Shoots Teen Intruder Who Robbed Her For 2nd Time

[GH85Carrera]

Originally Posted by HHI944

Elzie Pipkins, 63, Shoots Teen Intruder Who Robbed Her For 2nd Time

That is the type of story that warms my heart. A POS is gone from the population. I do feel bad for Elzie. Forced to kill a POS.