Blown up BMW, wrong engine oil, whose fault?

[fastfredracing]

A good customer of mine is sitting at my front door Monday morning when I pull in . His 2010 5 series is making noise, and he wants me to look at it.
I have him start it, and ugh. Really loud rod knock from #5, or 6. After a few foul words, he calms down, and realizes that he has an extended warranty . I call them up , and the first thing they ask for is receipts for recent oil changes .
He has them, but has not been using synthetic motor oil, and has gone approx 6 k between each oil change .
The local quick lube guy stops down to my shop in a panic, fearing that it is his fault. I guess he told John ( BMW) owner that he would be fine using conventional oil , as long as he shortened his oil change intervals .
Do I honestly think that this caused the bearing failure? doubtful, but I can guarantee that the warranty company will deny the claim based on this information .
What do you guys think about this one ?

[Por_sha911]

What was the cause? Crack it open and see. If you can find a part failure that is not lubrication related you might have a chance at getting them to cover it. He's at their mercy. Normally, negligence or abuse like wrong oil = voided warranty. Back in teh 80's Volvo would void your new car warranty if you didn't use their oil filter.

I have to wonder if the lube guy did something else that was stupid like not change the filter?

[Bugsinrugs]

When I used to visit the TDI forums I recall this happening to a Jetta owner. He had all the receipts in order. He took his car to the dealer for service at all the required intervals. VW turned down his claim because the dealer didn't use the required oil.

[jhynesrockmtn]

I would think the devil will be in the details of the warranty. If it calls for factory oil recommendation and interval and that oil should have been synthetic, I would think he is screwed.

[recycled sixtie]

I agree with the above that he is likely screwed. In my mind to qualify for a warranty claim you have to follow the guidelines of servicing. It is not rocket science for the owner to read the requirements re servicing. Living proof that common sense is not common.....

[wdfifteen]

Isn't that the problem with extended warranties? You have to follow their requirements chapter and verse or they won't cover you.
Way back in '94 I bought a used C280. My wife at the time insisted on buying the warranty. At about 10K over the factory warranty it blew a head gasket. The ext warranty co. denied the claim for some bogus reason - I think it was oil change records. MBNA covered the job for us.

I think the warranty co. denied the claim because they have nothing to lose. Their business model is to take your money and deny your claims.

MBNA didn't want a dissatisfied customer bad-mouthing their cars. Their business model is to maintain their reputations and get repeat business.

[unclebilly]

Here is my take on this...

The engineering team that designed the engine specified a particular oil for a reason. There is no monetary incentive for them to spec synthetic over Dino oils or 5:20 over 15:40.

If a oil change guy thinks he knows something about the engine and oils that the BMW engineers didn't and told his customer to use a different oil, this is partly on him. The customer is also partially to blame for allowing the oil change guy to use the wrong product.

[wdfifteen]

Ha!
i remember talking to a Porsche factory rep back in the early 60s. Somebody in the group asked if it was OK to use detergent oil (or multi viscosity or something - let's say it was detergent). The German service rep said very sternly, "If vee vanted you to use detergent oils, vee vould have specified detergent oils."

[MRM]

I have a 2011 535 and I'm sure I remember receiving the warranty package requiring synthetic oil at specific intervals. The oil change shop guy learned a hard lesson that you don't promise anything about someone else's product without the manufacturer's approval. He should have just referred the customer to BMW and told him to follow whatever they said.

The decision to take the risk and use dino oil makes no sense. It was a $50,000 car new, and is still worth $25,000. Why would the owner put his entire investment at risk for saving the price difference between dino and synthetic oil - a savings that was probably completely negated by shorter changing intervals?

Having said all of this, I can offer the oil shop guy some words of comfort. His shop insurance will cover the loss with no deductible to the car owner. His insurance will not increase significantly because of a claim of this size. We all make mistakes. This is what insurance is for.

[ckelly78z]

Using dino oil in a tight tolerance, newer BMW doesn't seem real smart. The synthetic oil gets into smaller gaps than the dino stuff, and lubricates better, and keeps cooler. We still use the expensive Castrol 5W 30 synthetic in my wife's 2003 BMW 325CI.

[fastfredracing]

It has been my experience that the warranty company will not cover the claim based on this information alone. They are ruthless, and do their homework on big claims .
I am hesitant to submit the receipts . I Hate dealing with warranty companies. On something like this they will tie my lift up for two weeks, and use every tactic they have at their disposal to deny the claim. They will want me to tear down the motor to see how and why it failed, but we all know, that they will only be putting a used engine with similar mileage they they source so, there is no possible way I can make a dollar on it . They make me do this for every one I do, but never come out to verify for themselves

[Jeff Higgins]

Why anyone would service or operate an under warranty vehicle outside of the factory specifications is beyond me. In doing so, one assumes all responsibility. It's just that simple. If you expect someone else to assume responsibility in the event of a failure, you absolutely must follow their recommendations or you don't have a leg to stand on. This one is entirely on the owner. If he wants to pursue a warranty claim, and if that means you have to tear the thing down, he needs to pay your hourly rate. This should in no way turn into any kind of a burden to you.

[greglepore]

Yeah, unless you sold the warranty, its unfair of the customer to burden you, the deal should be that either the warranty co pays you a fair rate (they won't) or the customer pays you for all of your time in pursuing the claim. I know that the reality of customer relationships doesn't allow this, but its no wonder indy guys get out all of the time.

[MRM]

Originally Posted by fastfredracing

It has been my experience that the warranty company will not cover the claim based on this information alone. They are ruthless, and do their homework on big claims .
I am hesitant to submit the receipts . I Hate dealing with warranty companies. On something like this they will tie my lift up for two weeks, and use every tactic they have at their disposal to deny the claim. They will want me to tear down the motor to see how and why it failed, but we all know, that they will only be putting a used engine with similar mileage they they source so, there is no possible way I can make a dollar on it . They make me do this for every one I do, but never come out to verify for themselves

Fred, it's not your job to pursue warranty claims for your customer. You give them an estimate for the cost of repairs and a letter saying what caused the damage. You give that to the customer and tell them it will cost $XXX to fix the car. They owe it whether its covered by warranty or not, and they are responsible for pursing coverage. You should not put yourself in between the customer and the warranty company. That's something the customer should be spending his time and energy doing.

[aschen]

Im suprised BMW doesent spec some proprietary expensive oil, so you are locked into the dealer. Im a bit confused by the economics of your customers decision to go with conventional oil, use a quick lube place, and do more frequent changes. It seems a bit bizarre in the context of somebody risk adverse enough to buy an extended warranty. He couldnt have saved more than 30-40$ per oil change right.


I basically assume all purchased warranty options are scams, but everytime I bad mouth them sombody gives me an example of how they did well with one. When I bought my house I went to alot of trouble to have the contract rewritten so that they wouldn't purchase the home warranty for the sale.

[1990C4S]

Originally Posted by aschen

Im suprised BMW doesent spec some proprietary expensive oil, so you are locked into the dealer. I

Some BMW cars do. There is a 0-80 synthetic I recall...although I think the packaging does not state the viscosity.

[speeder]

Originally Posted by Bugsinrugs

When I used to visit the TDI forums I recall this happening to a Jetta owner. He had all the receipts in order. He took his car to the dealer for service at all the required intervals. VW turned down his claim because the dealer didn't use the required oil.

Originally Posted by unclebilly

Here is my take on this...

The engineering team that designed the engine specified a particular oil for a reason. There is no monetary incentive for them to spec synthetic over Dino oils or 5:20 over 15:40.

If a oil change guy thinks he knows something about the engine and oils that the BMW engineers didn't and told his customer to use a different oil, this is partly on him. The customer is also partially to blame for allowing the oil change guy to use the wrong product.

Originally Posted by wdfifteen

Ha!
i remember talking to a Porsche factory rep back in the early 60s. Somebody in the group asked if it was OK to use detergent oil (or multi viscosity or something - let's say it was detergent). The German service rep said very sternly, "If vee vanted you to use detergent oils, vee vould have specified detergent oils."

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

Why anyone would service or operate an under warranty vehicle outside of the factory specifications is beyond me. In doing so, one assumes all responsibility. It's just that simple. If you expect someone else to assume responsibility in the event of a failure, you absolutely must follow their recommendations or you don't have a leg to stand on. This one is entirely on the owner. If he wants to pursue a warranty claim, and if that means you have to tear the thing down, he needs to pay your hourly rate. This should in no way turn into any kind of a burden to you.

All of the above are correct. The false economy of using the wrong oil, (or fuel/oil/air filter, etc.), has always baffled me. Even if the vehicle is only worth a few thousand dollars, it's dumb. It's an expensive lump of machinery.

I own a VW TDI and VW will absolutely deny warrantee claims if you cannot prove that you used the correct, (specified), oil. It has a spec, (502.1 I think), that is specified everywhere in literature, online, under the hood, etc.

Unlike Sammy, I generally sympathize w anyone who has bad fortune in life but this guy learned an expensive, easily avoided lesson. The oil change place needs to change their protocol and train their people on this issue.

[Steve Carlton]

It's hard to believe an engine would fail if the correct viscosity was used on a timely basis, unless there's a rating or additive issue. Who sold the warranty and what company is it?

[wdfifteen]

Originally Posted by speeder

I generally sympathize w anyone who has bad fortune in life but this guy learned an expensive, easily avoided lesson.

Was the lesson not to buy extended warranties or to use synthetic oil?

[manbridge 74]

Having a hard time believing Dino is goin to cause a knock. I'm guessing it ran low on oil.

Is this car tracked/auto crossed?