84 911 3.2 - Time for rebuild? Advice needed.

[WCN621]

Ok, scenario - car has sat for 4+ years. Major health issues, home remodel, divorce, job changes...well, you get the picture.

Finally getting back to working on car, assessing status, my skill set and multiple areas of leaks - along the bottom of engine case, can’t see where oil coming from(cleaned bottom of engine), transmission is leaking, not only around gasket/plate. Last time I drove it, then parked, overnight I had at least 4 qts on floor. Then life got in the way shortly after that.

Have limited height in garage to work on, so cannot get under car very well, which limits my access. With my current skill set, I won’t drop the engine, but up for the challenges at some point. I bought car, a driver, in 2012, only put 800 miles since I bought it, with no maintenance history. She has 132K. Still want to work on it, but want it on the road.

Looking for your advice regarding rebuild, what I should look for in shop, what should be done, what to expect (I do realize an expected cost of a rebuild, but don’t want one if I don’t need it!). Thanks all.

[darrin]

leaks generally don't require a rebuild to address/resolve, seems you first step should be to find a mechanic that's familiar with/competent working on air-cooled 911s and have him get your leaks resolved (if you let us know where you are in the northeast, folks should be able to provide some good first-hand recommendations) -- many significant leak sources could well require an engine drop or partial engine drop to address/resolve, as would engine fuel line replacement which, if not yet done on your carrera should be addressed asap.

That said, at 132k miles many 3.2 carrera engines will require a top end overhaul to address premature valve guide wear and excessive oil consumption. If you're planning on (finally) enjoying your carrera for a while, you might want to evaluate whether it's time for a top end overhaul too.

[WCN621]

Thanks Darrin. Considering a top end overhaul as there was also a broken head stud ID’d on my prepurchase inspection, so maybe it’s time to plunge. Also will give a piece of mind that many of the issues will be addressed so I can finally enjoy the car.

Unfortunately will have to have my rear brakes done too as I can’t rebuild my rear calipers either, with the access I have. Unless you’ve got a suggestion how to remove those lower bolts on the calipers!

Note: I’m in the Pittsburgh, PA area.

[darrin]

I think you're on the right path here -- hardest part about owning a 911 of our vintage (I have an '86 targa) is getting the deferred maintenance/etc. taken care of so it's ready to roll! -- saw this thread on rennlist -- no personal affiliation, but a few good pointers/leads https://rennlist.com/forums/993-forum/431287-mechanics-in-pittsburgh-a-little-long-2.html

best of luck

[Driven97]

Originally Posted by WCN621

Last time I drove it, then parked, overnight I had at least 4 qts on floor.

Is that correct, you had a gallon of oil on the floor after driving it?

FWIW, it's very tough to do too much on the motor without dropping it. Fortunately, it's a pretty easy thing to do. My first time I went super slow, but by the third time I was able to have the motor on the ground in about an hour, by myself.

[WCN621]

Yep, my guess at least 4 qts, a real mess. Car had sat off and on for 2 years prior and probably more before I bought it. Based on where I saw the major leaks, they were the valve covers and the oil return tubes. Replaced the valve cover gaskets, but didn’t get to oil return tubes before the major hiatus.

My trade off on dropping the engine is that I want it on the road...now, and if I did drop the engine, I wouldn’t be driving it this season. I travel heavy in my job and have minimal time to work on it. Lack of experience and time = much longer to resolve and complete. So...digging into wallet.

Would really enjoy having someone with experience first time drop. Any highlights to be aware of when you do it? Thanks Driven97.

[BoxsterGT]

A small leak onto a concrete floor spreads a lot more than we realize. Just a pint will look like a gallon.

Just make sure there is enough oil when starting & running it, but too much makes it go all over the place. Absolute MAX level in hot weather should be half way on the dip stick.

Drive it and enjoy it, just keep checking the levels. The min amount of oil in the system is about 7 quarts so you have a pretty good range before it drops to a critical level.

Len

[mepstein]

If you already have a broken head stud, I would plan for at least a top end. If you want a great running car and have the money, find a good shop and go all in.

[Driven97]

Originally Posted by WCN621

but didn’t get to oil return tubes before the major hiatus.

The expandable type return tubes aren't too bad of a job. 100%, absolutely, buy O-ring installation grease. Motor oil makes the O-ring stick (which is what they're supposed to do to seal) and makes installation virtually impossible. I think I used Dow 111 after wasting a day trying to put them in without it, night and day difference. A full tube is expensive, a scuba shop (or Amazon) will sell smaller quantities for cheaper. I think I paid $5 for a small tin.

[stlrj]

Originally Posted by WCN621

Last time I drove it, then parked, overnight I had at least 4 qts on floor. Then life got in the way shortly after that.

My 87 did the same. So here's what I did: I drained all the oil like I would for an oil change but later refilled with only 5 quarts of oil and checked my garage floor the next morning...just a few drops. That was telling me it was likely leaking form the oil return tubes or lower rocker shafts. Next, I was curious to see if I still had oil pressure with only 5 qts and I did. Long story short... been driving it like that for 6 months now with only a very small amount of leakage while monitoring my oil pressure.


Cheers,

Joe

[sugarwood]

Originally Posted by WCN621

Unfortunately will have to have my rear brakes done too as I can’t rebuild my rear calipers either, with the access I have. Unless you’ve got a suggestion how to remove those lower bolts on the calipers!
.

I got the lower caliper bolt off using 3/8" ratchet with 19mm socket.
Had to use a pipe on the ratchet to break it loose.
Then I just used a ratcheting wrench to spin it off (a few degrees at a time)

[WCN621]

Sugarwood, thanks for the direction! I used a ratcheting 19mm socket wrench with a couple of blows with a weighted hammer and off she came (with an ample amount of WD40). Looks like the 4th of July weekend I’ll be rebuilding the rears.

[996AE]

at 155k mi in communist CA I couldnt pass SMOG test. Valve guides leaking. Ran great, no smoke eat a quart of oil every 1k mi.

But, rather than register out of state (at second home) I decided to do top end. Then, heck we are this far, at 155k spilt the case and lets go all in.

Car is amazing and I am glad I did the full monte.

[jlex]

Originally Posted by sugarwood

I got the lower caliper bolt off using 3/8" ratchet with 19mm socket.
Had to use a pipe on the ratchet to break it loose.
Then I just used a ratcheting wrench to spin it off (a few degrees at a time)

To keep from ruining a good ratchet wrench on a stubborn bolt, you may want to use a breaker bar next time. I have 3/8" and 1/2" breaker bars that have no ratcheting mechanism so there's nothing to break unless the metal itself gives way. A must for use on rusty bolts.

[darrin]

Originally Posted by stlrj

My 87 did the same. So here's what I did: I drained all the oil like I would for an oil change but later refilled with only 5 quarts of oil and checked my garage floor the next morning...just a few drops. That was telling me it was likely leaking form the oil return tubes or lower rocker shafts. Next, I was curious to see if I still had oil pressure with only 5 qts and I did. Long story short... been driving it like that for 6 months now with only a very small amount of leakage while monitoring my oil pressure.


Cheers,

Joe

Since the 911's oil is both lubricating AND cooling the engine, I'd be quite concerned with driving my car with only half the recommended oil on board, regardless of what pressure readings you're seeing . . .. .

[Walt Fricke]

While there seems to be general agreement that you can drive a 911 with one broken head stud for a while, or even quite a while, this is hardly quantified. I found one broken on an SC I race, and I immediately pulled the engine. I lucked out on the stud's location, as I could get to the broken part (exhaust) from under the engine once the air diverters were removed (the worst part), and weld a tube over the broken part and back it out, etc. But not sure I could do this in any other location. Maybe if I were a better welder I wouldn't have had to grind the weld thinner. So I didn't have to split the case. But I did have to remove the engine to do this on an engine stand. Something to think of - you are to some extent rolling the dice. But this engine ran up to 6,700 RPM lots of times per lap, etc. Highway driving where you are at 3K max a lot is different.

Agree with those who say replace the oil return tubes. I now have the Dow Corning stuff, but back when I used oil or a bit of grease for lube and it worked, at least to get them installed.

Over time, oil migrates from the dry sump tank into the bottom of the engine. The sump fills until it is at about the same level of the oil in the tank. As the oil in the sump rises, the first holes it reaches are the return tubes, well below the cylinders. So if even one of the 8 seals has failed, because oil is very slippery stuff it will leak out there.

When you start one of our 911s, the scavenge pump quickly empties the sump, and the level in the oil tank rises. This is why you check the oil level right after parking it after a decent drive/idle time to fill the tank.

[bpu699]

I will offer one piece of free advice... most of these projects take years, plan for that...

If you have a job, kids, obligations, a not unlimited budget, etc...

I would guess that of the folks that pull a motor out of their car to rebuild it themselves...

20% never ever run again...

10 % get it all done in 6 months or less...

Everyone else has the best intentions, and eventually get done, 2-10 years later...


I have done this process twice. Have every tool known to man, and a lift. But finding time, is tough. I would rather be with my kids, than in the garage by myself.

Just be aware of that before you start an engine and trans rebuild...

Bo...

[yelcab1]

I am not in your shoes so take this for what it is worth.

1. If I have 4 quarts of oil leaking overnight, I would not be driving that engine until I figure it out.
2. If a car has not run for 4+ years, has a broken head stud, is a now-expensive air cool 911, I would be tempted to spend some real money in it to make it right again. You will get back what you put into these cars now that they are pricey.
3. If I cannot wrench on it, I would find someone who can wrench on it and job it out.
4. I actually do wrench on these cars, I have and will strip the engine down to bits if I have to. My last kid will be out of the house to college in September so I will have plenty of time to rebuild a car, engine, gearbox. I can use another project....

[jschmidt63]

My limited experience wrenching but owning a 3.2 for years I would have you consider cracking the case as well. You have no history, your over 130k and massive oil. My local shop just dropped a 964 for big leaks that turn out are from lower case. Even if you locate leaks in upper engine the saying of doing it while the engine is out still applies. My 2 cents and best of luck.

[CCM911]

How about you just start by jacking up the rear of the car, and spraying the engine liberally with brake cleaner to get rid of all the oil. Then you'll see where the leaks are. As for the return tubes, I used a product called Sil-Glide, and they went in just fine. Just attack one leak at a time, and you'll be fine.