EVIL ENGINE goes Twin Turbo - Your Chance to Design the 930tt Exhaust System

[mb911]

I would NOT cut up the back of the car no matter what. I think there may have been 2 things considered when those guys did it.

1st probably something to do with draining oil off of the turbos

2nd possibly trying to get the turbo as close as possible to the TB for better throttle response.

you may still want to consider the weld up v band ssi as a viable option. John did design them for 930 application and it would be very easy to plumb them twin turbo.. The loss for early boost for the longer tube runs is made up with the small twin turbos.

The HE them selves are about 1000 bucks though.. I would have to look at my bill

[RarlyL8]

Ben - I do like those V-band SSIs, unfortunately I have too much money tied up in heat exchangers right now. I need to make a decision soon and sell something. I'm not to concerned about the SSIs long runner design, it's gotta be way better than stock or even Euro 930 H/Es.
The Monster exchangers are most likely a very difficult piece to sell due to their uniqueness, it was a gamble buying them. If I go rear mount I will likely cut them up and re-weld the turbo flanges closer to the engine for a better fit. I still have received no reply from Stephen or iA after 2 e-mails sent. I'm going to post on Rennlist next.
I sent the passenger's side Monster exchanger to you last week, Ben. The weather may slow it a day, let me know if I need to track it. Also, Luke is sending his 993tt exchanger up to you as well to have the flanges flipped. He may have you ship it back to me with the Monster exchanger to save some freight (I will pay).
I will post all my findings when these exchangers are returned. Lots of pictures from all angles and many measurements so we can see what we are dealing with here.
There are a couple of guys out there with side mounted turbos that have not replied to this thread. I plan to contact them as well.
Thanks for the input.

[Mike the mechanic]

Originally posted by RarlyL8
Thanks Mic!
I have e-mailed both Mike and Stephen before about their setups with no reply from either.

Brian, I do recall replying to your email, and I still have the reply in my "sent" folder dating back to November 1st! I always help a fellow pelicanite when I can.
About cutting up the rear mount, all I did was cut semi circles for the compressor outlet to fit. I didn't modify the rear of the body at all. Nothing else was touched, as modifying the body of any car is out of the question. I always work around the body in any conversion I do, so that the car can be brought back to stock with no evidence later on.
This was done for two reasons, one, I had to have the turbos high enough for gravity drain of the oil return, and two, because the turbos were very big. The inlets alone were 4". The KKK turbos you are using are very small compared to my T3.T4's, so they can probably be mounted high enough for gravity drain without touching the mount.

[mic]

Mike:
Based on what you say, then if we use a 930 scavange pump, then wouldnt the issue of gravity drain on the turbos be illiminated and consequently lowering the turbos could be possible?
However, i am expecting that the rear tin would need to be drastically changed?

[RarlyL8]

Thanks for the reply Mike. I sent you another e-mail which may have been burried or didn't make the trip. I noticed that your turbos are huge. Did you remove the rubber gasket in the car that seals against the engine tin in the rear?
I am using the 930 oil system and plan to place my turbos on the same plane as the stock setup. They can easily go lower than yours. What I was most concerned with is how your turbos fit next to the rear cross member of your car. The pictures look like they would interfere but you say they do not. How close is it?
By the way, your 0-60 blast video from many years ago is still among my favorites. Unreal!

[mb911]

just so you know I have a few buyers for those 993 exchangers you got from me going rate is 4-500 for flipped flange ones

[Mike the mechanic]

I don't know know? I never got another email!! I would remember... maybe accidentally deleted it. Sorry!

Yeah, if you use the 930 scavenging setup, then you can place the turbos lower, and wouldn't have to modify the mount bar. I didn't remove the gasket, it's still there. I did have to make a custom rear tin though. i basically cut out where the turbos were sticking higher than the tin and just welded new sheetmetal that went around and over the turbos.
When you say it looks like the turbos would interfere with the rear crossmember, what part do you mean exactly? The part of the body?

[RarlyL8]

Yes Mike, part of the body.
Unfortunately I have nothing to go on except pictures and the engine in my car. When I look at the pictures, specifically the relationship between the turbos and the engine cross mount, it APPEARS that the turbos will hit the rear fusilage in the engine bay. You say it does not so it in fact does not. THAT is exactly the type of information I need.

It also APPEARS that the tubos mounted on the Monster exchangers will hit in the same area. That is why I also asked the same questions to Stephan at iA. A closer look at some new pictures (thank you all that sent them) reveals that the turbo outlets are facing slightly downward so they would not interfere the way I though they might. When I get the passenger's side exchanger back from Ben I will clock the turbos and see what configuration will allow the best fit.

This is all new stuff to me and it is really interesting to see how all you guys that have actually done this came to the design conclusions that you did. I don't want to re-invent the wheel, just learn how to best make it roll.

[RarlyL8]

Got an e-mail from Stephen this morning. The Monster exchangers were designed to fit a-la 935, which means cutting up the rear fusilage of the car. I am not willing to do that so we're back to square one.

Thanks for the pricing info Ben. That makes me feel a little better about all the money I have tied up in heat exchangers.

As a side note I drove my car to our PCA Christmas party last night. The recent cold front has pulled the temps down pretty low at night. I gotta have heat!

[mic]

Brian needs Heat....
(and so do some of us other northerners)....

I have been considering in using an aux front oil cooler as a liquid-to-air heat exchanger to draw heat out of the oil circuit. In addition to the front mount oil cooler, I am considering in leaving the standard 930 cooler in place and duct air flow from it into the front of the car. Has anyone done this before? Problems that i can anticipate is that the oil thermostat might take a while to open up on the cold days.

I once considered Luke's idea of a oil-to-liquid exhanger, and a pump with a standard air to liquid exchanger in the cockpit, but i see that as being much more complicated to do. I would rather put an auxilary oil cooler into the heater air circuit. and then put a manual valve on it to reroute the oil through it for the cool days. I also found that liquid-to-liquid heat exchangers can be costly.

Another consideration in going this way -->although porsche does this, I have always be leary of drawing the air from the rear of the car into the cockpit (more chance of exhaust being drawn in at a stop).

I understand that you can purchase at least a electric defrost module to go under the dash. I saw a local race car with one of these. I think it came from Smart Racing Products.
BTW: If you always need heat, then just route the oil lines from the back of the car inside to the front. Apparently they get mighty toasty. (This was done on the same race car)

The 930 guys could do the protomotive type solution and capture the heat from the engine mounted oil cooler into the heat circuit.

I absolutely will not consider a gas heater.

[Lukesportsman]

Oh Mike, does the idea of something burning in your trunk alarm you? The thought just makes me cringe....I'd even have issue riding in someones car with a proven one.

The swithable valve and oil cooler, maybe mounted in the smuggler box sounds promising. Oil temps are about 170-180 at best in the winter, but then again water (its a liquid that some use to cool their engine) in a radiator system is doing well for 190-200. I don't see why it wouldn't work if the loop would exclude any other auxillary cooler. You might even be able to use like an electric Accusump valve to control from the cockpit.

Brian,
Lost out on the 930 box as it whent over my $3100 bid. Probably good since I don't have anything to hang on it yet. I'll get my HE upto Ben.

[mb911]

Brian I just got the heat exchanger Its safe so don't worry.. .

Luke I will look for yours

[RarlyL8]

The heat issue is really best handled by a good pair of heat exchangers. Anything else is probably marginal.
Last winter we had a D/E at Taladega in January. The temp was in the 20s and may have hit 30F. I got in several hours worth of track time, and as you know, you must have your windows down. THANK GOD for my stock Euro heat exchangers. I actually had to turn the heat DOWN after a few laps on boost. It was frying my feet.
On the street my engine has a difficult time keeping warm in the winter. It runs about 150F. I have to get on boost every few minutes to pop the temp up.
I have heard that aftermarket heat exchangers such as B&B do a poor job heating. A couple of folks I know have them on 930s and complain that they yeild very little heat in the winter. The Monster exchangers have that same skimpy heat duct design.

Thanks for the heads-up Ben. I am growing more curious as to how much butchering these exchangers will need in order to place the turbos where I want them.

There was a short bellhousing 930 box w/posi for sale here a few days ago for $3200 IIRC. Perfect for our application. I'd give one of my shriveled nads for one with an 8:32 in it.

[Facey]

i can attest to a serious lack of heating ability from the B&B headers...i just got the long collector 1 3/4" set, and comapred to my SSI there is no heat being pumped into the cockpit.....


but hell...my car doesn;t really see poor weather so i'll survive..

[RarlyL8]

I received the Monster exchangers back from Ben some time ago (thanks!) after having the passenger side flanges flipped.
Thought I would mount the turbos on the exchangers one last time to see if there is any way to fit them without cutting up the exchangers. The K16s can be clocked so I took them apart and did just that. As soon as I get a rear engine tin I will be able to see if they fit. How does this look to you?

Speaking of rear tin, I agreed to purchase one but have not heard anything so assume it fell through. If anyone has a rear tin piece they can sell give me a holler.

[Lukesportsman]

My HE is still with Ben. He is also fabricating me some V band exhaust flanges for my "weird" GT's. I imagine I'll get them back in a couple of weeks. I'll let you know when he's done so that I can send them down to you. Brian, do you have a photo from the side?

[RarlyL8]

Photo of what from the side? I've got oodles of pictures.
Looking forward to see how your 993tt exchangers work out.

[MattAlpha]

In my mind this is the most inspirational thread on this website!

Keep up the great work Brian and thanks for sharing and accepting others' opinions.

-Matt

[mb911]

Originally posted by Lukesportsman
My HE is still with Ben. He is also fabricating me some V band exhaust flanges for my "weird" GT's. I imagine I'll get them back in a couple of weeks. I'll let you know when he's done so that I can send them down to you. Brian, do you have a photo from the side?

don't forget I need that drawing

[Lukesportsman]

I sent up the exhaust housing. It was supposed to be there today so hopefully tomorrow. I don't know how big of an operation, so keep your eye open for return address.....oops no packing invoice of any type