Outer CV Boots Torn, please help.

[Don Plumley]

Did you clean, inspect and repack the CV's in the used axles?

PB Blaster is great to help free frozen fasteners.

[dfink]

Originally posted by Paul Ferradas
I picked up a pair of used axles for $150.00 a piece at Parts Heaven. I figured since the boots were intact that the CV's aree good.

I think everyone has overlooked the point that you are replacing not repacking. Also correct that the shock has to come out. Make sure that you put a support under the trailing arm because when you take off the shock the trailing arm is going to drop. Now because it is almost Christmans I will give you a present. (not really) While you have the axle out take a screw driver and push back the brake pads so they don't rub and spin the hub. This is the time to check the rear bearing as there won't be anything interfering. If they sound like a bingo machine then they are bad. If they are nice and quite then good and you can put your axles back in. If they are noisy then now is the time to replace and the continuing saga of 20+ year old cars goes on. Also when replacing the axle bolts make sure that they are clean. Brake cleaner works good for this. Sorry should stick to one thing at a time.

[Jascha]

Paul,

The information you were given for the CV bolt hex size and torque is incorrect..

The bolts you are trying to take off are M10 type and require 60 ft-lb (!)

The M8X50 are for the late 1975-early '85 p-cars

You will need a set (12) 10x50mm (these cover late 1985-89)

Good Luck!

[Paul Ferradas]

Thanks Jascha. It's almost 6:00PM now and my wrenching time is over. WOW. Took me the whole day but I finally got one axle out. I couldn't have done it without you guys. I ended up using a breaker bar again for the rear shock bolt. I also have the trailing arm supported.

Since I will be throwing away these axles, I decided to tear them up to see what's inside and become more familiar. I'm especially interested in taking apart the outer CV joint to inspect it since this was the side that had the torn boot. Is there a way to open the casing?

[Jascha]

To disassemble the outboard CV joint you can tap-off the tin cover.... you wlll need to tip the axle shaft to remove a ball bearing, follow the same procedure for the others and then the inner race (still attached to the axle shaft) and the cage will come out.

Grady Clay described this very nicely as a way to service the welded assembly CV-joint end here:

Carrera CV Boot Replacement

[A930Rocket]

Thanks Guys. I kinda figured all were like my 911SC and 911 Turbo with 6 bolts on each side. My bad.

Originally posted by KTL
The later axles on Paul's car are not bolted and both the inboard/transaxle side and outboard/wheel side. Only the inboard side has bolts. The outboard side has no bolts and the CV joint is welded to the shaft- which sucks IMO for when you're cleaning and repacking a perfectly good CV joint.

edit............. Michael beat me to it. I think we've pretty much covered all the bases on this job, no?

Originally posted by 88-diamondblue
On Carrera's the stub axle is part of the CV on the outboard side. To remove the CV the stub axle needs to come out as well. The turbo and earlier cars use a stub axle that is seprate from the CV axle assembly.

[A930Rocket]

BTW. I'm with WCC on the zip ties, at least for the smaller side of the boot. I've had too many tear using just the metal Otiker (sp?)clamps.

And did you know that if you don't pay attention when you clamp the metal band, you can locate it right in front of a bolt hole making it impossible to get a bolt back in w/o taking the Otiker clamp off?

[wcc]

Originally posted by KTL
**SNIP**...Most would even question the act of repacking and re-booting 20 yr. old axles. Given the time involved and the mess involved, the extra $ it costs to swap in replacement axles is arguably the best way to go. Time spent doing something else vs. rebuilding axles is worth something in my mind. Kinda like the time spent on this topic instead of wrapping the 10 Christmas gifts I haven't wrapped yet................

I don't mean to pick on you KTL, but I wouldn't think that the 20yr old axle would mean SQUAT. I would think the mileage would mean more. For example, my '85 has over 210k miles on it now with the factory CV joints. The number of years will have an affect on how the (rubber) boots hold up, but not the joints. So with that said, I hope Paul isn't replacing EVERYTHING based on age, but wear.

I know you (Paul Ferradas) are replacing the whole axle along with the CV joints, but it probably isn't necessary. The joints last thousands of miles. If I were you, I'd get them checked out (specs) and sell them off to recoup your costs. You probably didn't NEED to go to all this trouble, really. I wish I read this thread earlier........

Thanks A930Rocket for backing me up on the ZT......

[randywebb]

"20yr old axle would mean SQUAT"

I'd think a 20 yr old axle would mean the grease is old and needs to be changed....

[wcc]

Originally posted by randywebb
"20yr old axle would mean SQUAT"

I'd think a 20 yr old axle would mean the grease is old and needs to be changed....

ABSOLUTELY CORRECT!!!!!!!!!!!!

The grease is old, but NOT the joint. So if you had a 10k mile joint that is 20yrs old, and and 200k joint that is 20yrs old, what has more wear? Just wondering what you think? Please re-read my other post and you'll see we are talking about the same thing....

[randywebb]

I'd repack the joint with new grease & inspect it as I did so.

[KTL]

Originally posted by wcc
Well this is true, can't argue that. But they (ZT) require maintenance, and by realizing that when you put them on it's easy enough. For example, every time I change the fluid in the tranny I would replace ALL zip ties. They are easily snipped off and replaced. I would rather change out ties once in a while instead of risking another rebuild in 5k or so miles. If you have ONE hard launch you could tear your brand new boot. Not saying it WOULD, but COULD. That COULD happen with Zip ties too, but it lessens the chance. Basically, zip ties help prevent this.

Good point. I've always looked at boots as a service item that only needs attention when the boot itself is going bad. The clamps last forever. I hadn't thought of the boots twisting because I don't believe the axle assemblies have that much rotational play in them, so how do the boots twist? I guess the boot twist comes from the angular alignment of the axle shafts when they're installed in the car? Well then, your doing-boots-while-still-installled method should avoid that altogether? Kudos to you for finding the perfect method of re-booting.

As far as the boot clamps go, the Oetiker clamp is supposed to be able to maintain it's clamping force throughout temperature change because it is actually a spring clamp- the crimping of the clamp tensions the metal and allows for contraction and expansion due to temperature change. That's the other downside I see to the zip tie is that if it were installled in cold weather it might break in hot weather, or in the vice versa case it might come loose? I don't know the thermal expansion rates of plastics and don't really want to bother checking those zips. So I choose to like the metal bands which seem more reliable to me.

As far as the [potential conflict that occurs when you install the Oetiker clamps? Sorry if that's happened. Guess you guys should pay more attention to the details......... Just kidding. Point well taken. Actually most of the clamps i've seen on these axles are the pass through the hole and bend the band end over type. The crimp type are usually used on axles that don't have bolted ends, but instead are the type that are held in with circlips.

[KTL]

It doesn't bother me to be picked on- that's what you're doing otherwise you wouldn't pick out my replies and respond to them! Bring it on. You've got your beliefs and i've got mine. Not everbody has to agree on everything or see things the same way. But don't classify other people's choice of how they choose to do a job as "dumb" I get the impression from your replies that you could be a tech and are used to leaving things in place as needed to simply deal with the problem at hand so as to get the job done efficiently and move on to the next vehicle waiting in line. You can attest better than anybody that the factory manuals for alot of service items can tell you to do a lot of steps in a repair process that aren't necessary. Most people don't have the luxury of seeing many cars in need of repair come and go through their hands, and thus be able to have a feel for what warrants full replacement. So what do they do? They choose the conservative approach and replace stuff that may not necessarily need replacing just yet.

I'm all for saving money and doing a job right. But sometimes one doesn't have the time or the wherewithall to do a complete inspection and rehab of the axle shaft. I did a full inspect on mine and rebooted them no problem. But I have a friend who's car is a daily driver and had but one day to get his boots fixed. He came to me because he didn't want to get laid over a barrel like Paul's dealer proposed to do to him. My friend was glad to get the axles installed by me for free for a bill out the door of less than $450 ( I got the new axles with new screws from a retail friend for $215 each last year) instead of leaving it with me for a few days while I take it all apart, look things over, see what can be salvaged and what should be replaced, put it all together again. I have his old axles sitting on my shelf that I plan to "rebuild" (if possible) whenever I get the chance.

I'd venture to guess that the cost of Paul giving the axles for someone to inspect to spec. would cost him a fair buck, and most guys wouldn't even know where to look to find a shop to do this. I do know where to look and it still doesn't seem worthwhile because most will tell you, "Yeah, it's toast and you should replace it." probably because of legality issues. That's why most service manuals don't have specifications on rebuild items like these anymore because many don't DIY this stuff to that level of detail, nor do they have the means to check the specs.

I'll still argue the 20 yr old approach. There is some risk in a 20 yr. old axle, so there's some SQUAT to be concerned about. I can play the devil's advocate too...... Let's say an outboard boot (the one you can't replace the joint on) tore 10 yrs ago and the owner didn't get around to having it serviced for a number of miles- this unknown neglect happens ALOT. Even if the car has low mileage, the joint can still be quite worn due to this. By the time 20 yrs. comes along, that joint could be sporting some decent grease still, but well worn, wouldn't you say? So there's a case of low miles still warranting replacement. Of course the wear can be observed with a proper clean and inspect. But again, I return to me previous statement that some don''t have the time to do that. It's easier to swap out the axle and move on to other things.

And how do you propose inspecting the outboard joint properly with it in the car? You sure can't repack it properly in the car. How do you know what type of grease is in there? If you're all about doing things right, you should flush out all the old grease and refresh with new. Just adding some more grease is not very effective since many greases are incompatible and separation occurs, so the new grease doesn't penetrate the joint because the old grease doesn't blend with it. Also hard to flush when the axle's in the car. But you can just turn the car on it's side. That's easier than bothering with taking the axle out.........

[wcc]

KTL - Interesting post, but I'm dropping it and moving on. Not because you are right or wrong, but because there are 10 different ways to do the same project and they all achieve the same end result. So, no hard feelings on this end. Paul is replacing the whole set up by removing it from the car. That's the bottom line, so doing it another way for him is mute. So lets just drop it and help Paul out as his questions arise.

[Paul Ferradas]

It's Christmas Eve. Just woke up and I'm ready to hit the garage again. I plan to have the car finished today. I read something on a post that I need to question. Possibly the CV 101 post but I can't recall right now.

Someone mentioned that the self locking stub axle nut is a "use once" nut. If this is the case then I can't finish the car and it will have to sit until I orderthe new nuts?

Is this correct? To me the look like any other nut. I'd hate to have my car sit there over the holidays while I wait for 2 nuts.

Of course I want to be safe about all of this so if this is the case the car will sit.

I'm basing this off of one persons post about these nuts. I haven't seen a mention of this in any of the manuals.

[Don Plumley]

Paul - I don't recall this, and FWIW, I re-used my axle nuts. But I'm far from an authority of this one.

To re-ask a question - did you re-lube and put new boots on these axles?

[88-diamondblue]

Paul,

I re-used mine. Put these back on and if you want to get the new ones, put them on when you get them. This will get you going.

[Paul Ferradas]

Hi Don.

No. I'm replacing the axles, not repacking them. I'm tossing the old ones in the garbage. I really don't want to deal with the mess of repacking. I paid $150 a piece for used but good axles.

[Paul Ferradas]

Good enough. Thanks guys. I have a smile on my face now

[Don Plumley]

Originally posted by Paul Ferradas
Hi Don.

No. I'm replacing the axles, not repacking them. I'm tossing the old ones in the garbage. I really don't want to deal with the mess of repacking. I paid $150 a piece for used but good axles.

So I'm guessing these axles are as old as the ones you are replacing? Do you know how many miles are one them? So unless they have new boots and you can confirm that they are well lubricated, you may be doing this job again sooner than later. In other words, a few hours more of at least inspection, re-lube and new boots may prevent you from having to do this for another 10 years. But if the boots are old, they might tear next month...

My $0.02.