Ultimate Motor Oil Thread or Why we hate CJ4/SM oils

[tito911s]

Stand corrected. I guess I posted old LE stuff. Here is the breakdown for SAE.

[Trackrash]

God help us, even the Diesel oils are getting reduced zinc.

[DRACO A5OG]

I thought Trump dumped the EPA?

Any who from Chevron Direct:

Hi Jim,

The Delo 400 LE 15w-40 will be eventually be phased out with the new government emission requirements of the API CK-4. With the current specifications and direction that they are going in, it will be very unlikely that we will see LE again. As you mentioned, you are seeing the LE's replacement, Delo 400 SDE 15w-40(CK-4), starting to stock the shelves. Delo 400 SDE 15W40 uses an ashless additive package to replace the lower zinc & phosphorus levels which were required for Chevron to meet emission requirements of API CK-4 category. We have found the ashless antiwear package improves oxidation control, wear protection, and piston deposit control in both older & newer engines. Unfortunately, we do currently do not have a product that will have similar ZDDP. LE is still being produced sold, but only in larger quantities (not in quart bottles, jugs, or case quantities) and for a limited time. Please see below for a recent statement from our Technology Team regarding SDE and flat tappet cams.

"Wear protection requirements for heavy-duty motor oils are based on industry standard engine dynamometer based tests. In particular, there are three tests that specifically evaluate the oil’s ability to provide valvetrain wear protection. Notably, there are two tests (Cummins ISM and the GM Roller Follower Wear Test) that evaluate wear protection in roller follower valvetrains, and another (Cummins ISB) that evaluates wear protection in FLAT TAPPET valvetrains. This is in addition to other wear tests like the Mack T-12 that evaluates the oils ability to protect against ring/liner wear and bearing corrosion. Engine oils like Chevron’s Delo 400 SDE SAE 15W-40 that also meet the requirements of the API SN category, have also undergone testing specific to confirm protection in gasoline engines as well.

These engine tests are carefully developed to exploit specific performance areas required of lubricants, and often run at operating conditions that far exceed those that are encountered in typical engine operation. By design, the API “C-categories” are developed to be “backward compatible”. This means that when new categories are developed, they adopt the requirements of older categories and add to them. That doesn’t always mean, however, that ALL NEW OILS can be used in ALL OLDER ENGINES. OEMs ultimately make the call regarding what performance spec and viscosity grade is appropriate for a given application. It isn’t clear to me in the situations where we are being challenged, what the real vintage of these products are, and accordingly what the lubricant requirements were/are.

What I can say is that when we choose to rebalance an additive package to address new requirements, it doesn’t involve compromising performance. As it relates specifically to ZDDP, we don’t just simply drop the level of wear protection. Instead, the additive package is rebalanced with other non-Zinc containing wear control additives, and other functional components that allow us to meet or exceed the performance requirements using the fully formulated finished oil.

Oil formulation is a balancing act, and we know that in many cases “less is more”. As such, supplemental additives that purport to enhance wear protection may in fact have the opposite effect. It can also introduce other unpredictable issues regarding seal compatibility, or general interference with the other components that are native to the formulation."

I hope this helps. Let me know if you have any additional questions.

Thank you,

Meggan Frey
Lubetek

ref:_00D3017zq._500391sTq9N:ref

[KNS]

Nice of him to respond - even though the news wasn't great.

Might have been mentioned already, I've heard the Rotella T6 5W-40 formula has already changed...

[tito911s]

I guess this is the new normal. I would appreciate thoughts on using straight 30w delo 400. Superficially, the numbers looks better than the 14w40 stuff.

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk

[kyngfish]

Anyone have any real-world experience on whether the ZDDP thing is actually real? I'm not trying to say it doesn't protect from wear, I'm just wondering if there are any real world tests that would show if the new anti-wear additives do as well?

[911pcars]

Real world testimonials from an automotive forum would have to come from a source who has built engines and tested them with and without the ZDDP additives in question.

Perhaps a wide range search might turn up recent research data. In that respect, Google might be your friend:
https://www.google.com/search?site=&source=hp&q=zddp+oil+additive&oq=zddp+&gs_l=psy-ab.1.1.0l4.2341.7562.0.10341.21.14.6.0.0.0.175.111 9.13j1.14.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..1.17.998.6..35i39k1j0i131k1j0i20k1j0i10k1j33i1 60k1.DVj6oHZ2kk4

As with any "facts" found on the internet, read several references while paying attention to the source. Anecdotal opinions are okay, but don't reach the level of scientific and/or professional scrutiny you might expect.

Sherwood

[HarryD]

Originally Posted by kyngfish

Anyone have any real-world experience on whether the ZDDP thing is actually real? I'm not trying to say it doesn't protect from wear, I'm just wondering if there are any real world tests that would show if the new anti-wear additives do as well?

As Sherwood notes, do your own research.

Given the cost to repair a failure of our motors, I for one, stick with the tried and true. I will let others blaze the trail for alternative additives.

YMMV

[adias]

I started using Liqui-Moly MoS2 and the engine runs smoother and quieter (at idle). My understanding is that PAG used to use Moly at the factory. I also noticed that the Mobil1 0W40 recommended for new cars has Moly.

[adias]

Originally Posted by kyngfish

Having this issue right now as well. After switching from the VR 1 to the Delo LE, I noticed it seems to run a little nicer and also slightly cooler. But the SDE has significantly less Zinc. According to Chevrons spec sheet it goes from .12 to .08. Now I'm wondering if Rotella is a viable option or if I need to go back to VR1. It doesn't make sense to me to use such high viscosity oils in our cars. If most damage occurs during cold start, wouldn't better flow just be all around better? Even if it seeps into more places due to tolerances, as long as I'm not leaking oil, why would I want oil to have a harder time circulating on start? (Full disclosure. Not an engineer so I'm genuinely curious). If anything I'm burning LESS oil with the 15w30 than the 20w50. But I have nothing to go on other than my periodic measurements and how it feels to drive. I welcome any pointers.

For what it's worth I'm going to do a virgin oil analysis of the latest Rotella T4 since I can't find anything on the web.

Why did you change from Valvoline VR1?

[kyngfish]

Originally Posted by HarryD

As Sherwood notes, do your own research

Not sure if you meant this to sound like it did. But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. If I'm posting on here about it, chances are I've done that google search and am looking for perspective from people that I trust on a forum I trust that also have the same or similar car.

[kyngfish]

Originally Posted by adias

Why did you change from Valvoline VR1?

One it's expensive, and I put a lot of miles on my car. Also I was following a few threads on here a few people I thought would know recommended the Delo 400. AND a local Porsche racer/ mechanic / engine builder told me "those deisel oils have what our engines need." So take that for what you will.

After I changed over I noticed it seems to crank a little quicker and seemed to run a bit nicer. But who knows.

In the end it doesn't matter because now that it's re formulated there aren't any real world examples.

Ideallly since I had a good experience with the Delo I'd like to find something in a similar weight with the right level of ZDDP or another recommendation from someone here.

[HarryD]

Originally Posted by kyngfish

Not sure if you meant this to sound like it did. But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. If I'm posting on here about it, chances are I've done that google search and am looking for perspective from people that I trust on a forum I trust that also have the same or similar car.

Sure. Sorry if I offended you in some way.

You did not include my full post which also tells you how I feel about alternatives and why.

Given the cost to repair a failure of our motors, I for one, stick with the tried and true. I will let others blaze the trail for alternative additives.

I have discussed this issue with some local motors builders who cannot risk an oil failure. Time has moved on but I find that the high ZDDP in the oil I use (Brad-Penn 20W-50) seems to give me good results.

When my engine needed a top end at 160,000 miles, all the oiled parts we took out looked great with minimal wear. We polished the cams, reconditioned the rockers, reused most of the valves (two were bent), reconditioned the pistons, heads and cylinders, added new rings and buttoned her up. Car never ran so well.

We ok?

[kyngfish]

Originally Posted by HarryD

We ok?

Lol. It's fine. I actually didn't do well with the Brad Penn. I feel like my oil consumption rose in a short span of miles which is why I started looking around. I just don't understand why we use the really heavy oils (cold viscosity) when most damage occurs during cold start. If someone could explain it to me that'd be great. What do I care about oil leaks if I'm damaging my engine?

I liked the way my car ran with the 15w40 vs the 20w50, and the Google searches are pretty nuts. Literally everyone says everything.

[Bill Verburg]

Originally Posted by kyngfish

Lol. It's fine. I actually didn't do well with the Brad Penn. I feel like my oil consumption rose in a short span of miles which is why I started looking around. I just don't understand why we use the really heavy oils (cold viscosity) when most damage occurs during cold start. If someone could explain it to me that'd be great. What do I care about oil leaks if I'm damaging my engine?

I liked the way my car ran with the 15w40 vs the 20w50, and the Google searches are pretty nuts. Literally everyone says everything.

Literally everyone says everything.

That's the problem w/ the internet

My advice use the oil or equivalent that was oe fill when the car was new.

for SC/3.2 Carrera that was 15w-40 or 15w-50 synthetic or 20w-50 non synnthetic

the bearing clearance in the engine are all designed around that oil, for cold starts the 15w is present the spec changes toward the higher # as the oil heats

back if those days SAE SE or SF was the oil spec, both have the same ZDDP content wasn't limited but too much is as bad as too little, you want a balanced additive package which includes detergents.

The amount of zddp desired also depends on the cam profile, modern smog cams don't need the same zddp levels as early S or other hi-perf high lift/ long duration cams.

If you have cams zddp in the 1400-1500 range would be desirable but probably not necessary, w/ stock smog cams the wear issues only arose w/ the 2004 SM spec of 800ppm, generally 1000ppm is considered a floor w/ stock cams I'd comfortable w/ 1100 to 1400. The level where it's too much is unclear and dependent on individual specs, but generally more than 1400 is considered unnecessary at a minimum.

• Any oil marked API SM/SN, ILSAC GF-4/5 or ILSAC CJ-5 in grades SAE 0W-20, SAE 5W-20, SAE 0W-30, SAE 5W-30 and SAE 10W-30 cannot have sufficient ZDDP.

Note tha 15w-50 15w-40 are exempt for the minimums, for these oils the manufacturers each pursue their own strategy, this is where you need to do your hw and obtain the actual specs from the manufacturers, then purchase accordingly.

[kyngfish]

Originally Posted by Bill Verburg

That's the problem w/ the internet

Yes. That's why this is "home base," people here tend to know their stuff.

I appreciate the insight though Bill, and that's why I come here.

Originally Posted by Bill Verburg

Note tha 15w-50 15w-40 are exempt for the minimums, for these oils the manufacturers each pursue their own strategy, this is where you need to do your hw and obtain the actual specs from the manufacturers, then purchase accordingly.

Agreed - but clearly even the 15w40 oils are changing as it seems Delo reformulated and from what I'm reading, Rotella Triple Protection may have recently gone the same way. It seems like the M1 15w50 is a good bet, but I'm hoping if M1 works out that it sticks around in the current formulation.

I'm also intrigued by Adias's comment. I know most people are anti-additive, but isn't ZDDP an additive? I checked out Lubro Moly and the topic has been beat to DEATH on bobistheoilguy - the general consensus is, it can do no harm, and possibly a lot of good.

This guy also did a before and after oil analysis.

https://thebuildjournal.com/products/liqui-moly-mos2-anti-friction-s54-m3-rod-bearings/

[Bill Verburg]

Originally Posted by kyngfish

Y.....
Agreed - but clearly even the 15w40 oils are changing as it seems Delo reformulated and from what I'm reading, Rotella Triple Protection may have recently gone the same way. It seems like the M1 15w50 is a good bet, but I'm hoping if M1 works out that it sticks around in the current formulation.

I'm also intrigued by Adias's comment. I know most people are anti-additive, but isn't ZDDP an additive? I checked out Lubro Moly and the topic has been beat to DEATH on bobistheoilguy - the general consensus is, it can do no harm, and possibly a lot of good.

This guy also did a before and after oil analysis.

https://thebuildjournal.com/products/liqui-moly-mos2-anti-friction-s54-m3-rod-bearings/

That's why you do HW, I have, I will only use oil for which the manufacture will provide specs. Not all will.

oil is a balanced complex mixture which contains various additives and packages which all must work in unison. DIY additives may or may not help, 2 much of one thing can and will affect the rest of the package, If you are adventurous by all means experiment.

[ganun]

Just in case...Walmart has the 5qt jug of Mobil 1 15w-50 for 24 bucks.

[1990C4S]

Originally Posted by Bill Verburg

My advice use the oil or equivalent that was oe fill when the car was new.

for SC/3.2 Carrera that was 15w-40 or 15w-50 synthetic or 20w-50 non synnthetic

As always Bill offers good advice.

The crux of the issue for most people is 'maybe there is something better than the Mobil1 factory fill'. Or 'maybe Mobil1 with additive XXXX will be even better!'

[911 tweaks]

Thx bill for your input as always...
Can you share with us what Porsche car(s) you may have,
what engine in car and the oil brand
and weight you are using...
That may answer a lot of q's people may have...
Thx bob