Ultimate Motor Oil Thread or Why we hate CJ4/SM oils

[htron435]

And what about additives like Marvel Mystery Oil? I've read that a bunch of old schoolers like the stuff. Any actual test data? Charles?

[cnavarro]

Just what Steve said, all aircooled Porsches need more than what Porsche recommends. I've seen Brad Penn in UOA's perform just as well as Mobil 1 V-Twin (which has even more Zn and P) and there are shops using Swepco in place of Mobil 1, where Mobil 1 was a complete failure. Proof positive that paraffinic base oils can perform as well as their synthetic brothers and that really, it is the additive package that matters the most.

I had an acquantance of Bruce Anderson contact me that he had written Porsche about this, certified letter, and I never did hear back from him as to having received a response.

[cnavarro]

Marvel Mystery oil has its place, and that is not in your 911 :-)

I'ved used MM Oil before an oil change, if a car has noisy hydraulic lifters, as MM Oil does a great job of cleaning the inside of the engine. It however, does not add any protection or anti-wear properties. Another time it's 'ok' to use MM Oil is if the oil is very dirty (unknown last change), and you want to use it as a solvent to help clean things out. Just barely get the oil warm, running the engine after adding the MM Oil, then drain. I wouldn't do this in a 911 since you're going to be left with some residual contamination of the MM Oil, since it's damn hard to get every last drop of oil out.

[hcoles]

Charles, thanks for filter info.
-Henry

[Steve@Rennsport]

Originally Posted by htron435

Thanks Steve. Now, what about oil filters? For combination street/track usage, what's the best. I read earlier that someone recommended the Mobil1 or K&N over the Mahle filters. Would you agree? Is there a consensus on which filter provides the best combination of cleaning and flow-thru for higher revving applications?

Everyone has their opinions of course, but the only oil filters I will use on a 911 are the Mahle ones.

[dshepp806]

Well,..the Royal Purple Max Cycle 20W50 went in today,...with a new oil filter. She took 10 quarts to get just a touch above midline (not my typical 10.45 !!) In any case,....She's sounding smooth and revving pretty through 6K RPMs,...engine temps are really good at today's outside nominal 85 degrees F and a paultry 35% humidity...she never got above 1st hash mark (194), even at stop/go conditions.....all over an 80 mile spirited jaunt. The extracted Royal Purple Street 20W50 has been sampled and will go to Blackstone for testing. This oil will have had about 2,800 miles on it. I'll report back with my findings.

As well, I've sent in a virgin sample of the loaded RP Max Cycle and will test todays' loaded oil (Max Cycle) after I log about 3,000 miles on it. Will report back on that, too.

...hope to settle in on an oil,..

Best,

[DavErb]

Just picked up some ELF oil (Excellium NF 5W-40. API SL/CF ) Its MSDS sheet lists Zinc alkyl di-thiophospate as <1,4%. I think this is Ok for my '83 SC. Also has something called long chain Calcium alkyl salicilate at <1.4% (sounds like it would be good for a hangover).They've just started distributing it here in Canada, don't know if the US is getting it yet

[old man neri]

Originally Posted by DavErb

Just picked up some ELF oil (Excellium NF 5W-40. API SL/CF ) Its MSDS sheet lists Zinc alkyl di-thiophospate as <1,4%. I think this is Ok for my '83 SC. Also has something called long chain Calcium alkyl salicilate at <1.4% (sounds like it would be good for a hangover).They've just started distributing it here in Canada, don't know if the US is getting it yet

Where are you picking this up in Canada?

[cnavarro]

Is there a difference between the Elf Excellium NF 5w40 and the Elf Excellium NF (LDX) 5w40?

If indeed the levels of Zn and P are as stated in the Elf Excellium NF 5w40 (API SL/CF), I would highly recommend it over M1 0w40. I have a sneaking suspicion that the LDX is the new, API SM version, and that the old one will be phased out. Just like Motul did to my favorite VW Specific 5w40!

Edit:

http://www.lubadmin.com/Restitution.aspx?Marque=3&Famille=4&Type=2&Language=1&Site=4&Parametre1=2

It looks like the LDX did replace the non LDX, but it is still an API SL/CF.

Although not "Porsche Approved", I'd feel safe using ELF EXCELLIUM DID 5W-40, and even better, it's API SJ :-) I'd be willing to bet the VW Spec 505.01 is more demanding than the 505.00 and 502.00 vw specs which match up with the Porsche spec on the Excellium NF (LDX).

[47silver]

put in 11 quarts of brad penn today....is it possible that the motor has less valve train noise or it my imagination.? the green color is cool in my opinionn and you can certainly see it on the garage floor if you spill it.

[cnavarro]

I have seen the Brad Penn quiet up an engine. It has some phenomenal HTHS viscosity #'s - 6.8 cSt @ 212F vs. M1 0w40's laughable 3.7 cSt.

[DavErb]

Originally Posted by old man neri

Where are you picking this up in Canada?

I picked it up in Ottawa when I was getting some Swepco 201. If you go to the Elf Canada website www.elfcanada.ca (hope its Ok with our hosts to post this site) you can find a page that will find your nearest retailer.

The DID formulation has <1,50 % zinc so it seems even bettter

[cgarr]

Charles,

You ever add MM oil to the fuel?

[Steve@Rennsport]

Originally Posted by cnavarro

Although not "Porsche Approved", I'd feel safe using ELF EXCELLIUM DID 5W-40, and even better, it's API SJ :-) I'd be willing to bet the VW Spec 505.01 is more demanding than the 505.00 and 502.00 vw specs which match up with the Porsche spec on the Excellium NF (LDX).

Charles:

It is now,....

[old man neri]

Originally Posted by DavErb

I picked it up in Ottawa

I am actually here right now. What place did you find that had the best selection? AutoImport?

[cnavarro]

Steve, my comment was that the Elf DID has a higher Zn and P than the 'approved' Elf NF. I should have just said that, I can see how I worded it made it confusing.

I also realized I had posted somewhere on this thread HTHS viscosity numbers, and it is at 212C, not F. 212F wouldn't be much of a high temp high sheer test!

[cnavarro]

I've spend the last few hours reading through some more SAE Journals and came across another reason for the development of an SM oil with less Zn and P, rather using ZP (ashless dispersants, etc)... The ZDDP breaks down into sulphyric acid, which directly affects the TBN by reducing it, shortening the drain intervals. By using low ZDDP oils, drain intervals can be lengthened. The one paper I read authored by the Nippon Oil Corp went as far as to claim doubling drain intervals, explaining the motivation behind these longer, 20-30k intervals Porsche, Mercedes, and BMW have turned to. Unfortunately, this doesn't address the wear requirements of older engines, just reducing maintanence on newer ones.

Another paper co-authored by Exxon in the early 80s linked bearing wear directly to oil viscosity, namely, the high temp viscosities and cleanliness of the engine based on different detergent packages.

In both studies, it really didn't matter whether the oil was a paraffinic base or synthetic. I have quite a few more to go through, if I find anything more of interest, I'll be sure to mention something or post it on my oil faq.

[HarryD]

Originally Posted by cnavarro

I've spend the last few hours reading through some more SAE Journals

Chuck,

Is there a Mrs Navarro? It's Sat night, give her some lovin'

and came across another reason for the development of an SM oil with less Zn and P, rather using ZP (ashless dispersants, etc)... The ZDDP breaks down into sulphyric acid, which directly affects the TBN by reducing it, shortening the drain intervals. By using low ZDDP oils, drain intervals can be lengthened. The one paper I read authored by the Nippon Oil Corp went as far as to claim doubling drain intervals, explaining the motivation behind these longer, 20-30k intervals Porsche, Mercedes, and BMW have turned to. Unfortunately, this doesn't address the wear requirements of older engines, just reducing maintanence on newer ones.

Another paper co-authored by Exxon in the early 80s linked bearing wear directly to oil viscosity, namely, the high temp viscosities and cleanliness of the engine based on different detergent packages.

In both studies, it really didn't matter whether the oil was a paraffinic base or synthetic. I have quite a few more to go through, if I find anything more of interest, I'll be sure to mention something or post it on my oil faq.

Thanks for some more background. Makes sense.

Now, check in with the Missus.

[DavErb]

Originally Posted by old man neri

I am actually here right now. What place did you find that had the best selection? AutoImport?

Autoimport it was

[Dennis Kalma]

I just picked up 3 containers of GM's EOS here in Calgary, dealer had 4 more on the shelf and he was unaware of any change in their availability. I asked if I could buy a case of the stuff and he figured it would not be a problem....price was $8 Canadian so that works out to something like $57 US these days???

Is there a chance that the change in EOS's availability is a USA only issue as generally Canada is more lenient on emmissions and so forth? Certainly there is an opportunity for shipping bootleg EOS to the US if it is available here....sort of like the Prohibition with oil.....

Dennis