Ultimate Motor Oil Thread or Why we hate CJ4/SM oils

[Hoghead]

Air cooled engines, have special oil issues and you may wish to take a read of this bike related article:

http://www.calsci.com/motorcycleinfo/Oils1.html

I use only Mobil 1 Delvac, in eyerything I own (or as it now called in Thailand "Turbo Pickup Oil")
Yes this is a diesel oil, but read on and decide for yourself.

While you are at this site, look at his comments on oil filters.
Purolator Pure One for me, and carried back in my suitcase every time I go back to Canada.

YMMV

[cnavarro]

Shell and Mobil have been slow to bring out the new CJ-4 versions of synthetic rotella and delvac, but I'd imagine the change is coming soon.

Back to the HTHS, it took me a few hours, but I found the SAE technical paper that directly correlates HTHS @ 150C to bearing wear, titled "Engine Oil and Bearing Wear" #810330 which states 'bearing wear in particular correlats well with viscosity measured at 149C and a shear rate of 6 x 10^5 sec^-1' (HTHS vis). The zero wear intercept in cP is 13.7 for the viscosity at 150C.

I forget the conversion, but for the Brad Penn 20w50 it's HTHS vis @ 150 in cP is ~6.1 - it's just a conversion factor taking into consideration specific density to get it to cSt. This was higher than any other 20w50 I have found, including fully synthetic motorcycle oils. That's why I like Brad Penn so much, since non-catastrophic bearing failure due to wear is on the rise and has forced shops like Jerry Woods to have custom bearings made and for many shops to use coated bearings, like those sold by Calico Coatings.

[hcoles]

Charles, I'm jumping in here with a rookie question... my car 89 911 - been running M1 15-50 with one bottle of Swepco 502 - I'm planning to switch to Brad Penn (finally found a place way over in Santa Cruz) - I was thinking of doing an oil analysis before the switch to see if it is really time. Do I ask for a TBN? Suggest Staveley or Blackstone? - the Blackstone website seems more friendly.. on the Staveley website I couldn't figure out what to click on to give money to them. Any issues with mixing a couple of quarts of M1 with the new fill of BP? as you know it is not easy to get the last couple of qts out. Should I just forget the analysis and do the change.. I figured the people here might like to see the results and I would also get the benefits of the results.

[dan79brooklyn]

I've had good experience with Blackstone. They give you the technical specs as well as an analysis in nontech terms. I think if you say you are interested in 'extended drain intervals' they give you the TBN reading.
They will send you a free kit to use for the analysis, which is the container, and packaging for mailing back to them.
Turnaround is about two weeks and they will either mail or email the results to you.

[cnavarro]

I'd just forgo the analysis and do the change. It's ok that you get some blending, as it is nearly impossible to get every last drop of the old oil out.

Staveley may not be user friendly when it comes to ordering sample bottles or give you witty commmentary on tests- you have to prepay for ten or twelve tests, they are more expensive than Blackstone too, but I guess you get what you pay for. I can interpret the results myself or if I do have questions, they have specialists at Staveley that I've had lengthy discussions with that are very knowledgeable. I'm sorry ever having tried any one else to save a few $$$ on the testing. I always order the tests with TBN, since it's nice to have the virgin TBN to help determine the right time to change (when the TBN is reduced by 50% from the original).

[JFairman]

Originally Posted by dvkk

Why would anyone care what the viscosity is at 150ºC (302ºF) when nobody in their right mind would let their oil get that hot?

Like charles said, air cooled engines have localised hot spots. They are partially oil cooled.

In a 911 turbo the turbo gets incredibly hot.
..and to the extreme of that, ever watched the old 935 turbo race cars at night with red hot glowing turbos?
The oil is flowing through the bearing in that thing.

[RWebb]

"bearing wear ... correlates well with viscosity"

They must mean correlates inversely -- or am I wrong?

Thanks for looking up that article.

[hcoles]

that's what I thought also...high viscosity = higher thickness inside the bearing where the load is = but also equals more "friction"
I assume higher thickness = lower wear because the metal parts are less likely to come together.
Wear may come from other processes e.g. corrosion/etc. Charles probably knows. I forgot what they told us in school 30 years ago.. which may or may not have been true. The mechanisms for wear may be different for modern engines... ??

[cnavarro]

Originally Posted by RWebb

"bearing wear ... correlates well with viscosity"

They must mean correlates inversely -- or am I wrong?

Yeah, I think they could have worded that better. The gist of it was that the bearing wear went down as the HTHS # went up :-)

[RWebb]

THx - I don't think the ASTME journals have the best editing in the world. IF there was a graph then it would be clear from that.

[old man neri]

Something 'correlates' regardless of whether it is 'proportional' or 'inversely proportional'.

In this case it just meant that bearing wear and viscosity were 'linked'. A change in viscosity affects bearing wear. They correlate.


Makes sense?

[RWebb]

Yes, but none of the scientific journals in my field will allow that usage. If there is a negative correlation, then "inverse" must be used.

That is a less ambiguous usage.

We can also argue about whether 'correlate' means we are talking about r, or about r2...

[old man neri]

Just looked it up in the dictionary, one entry read this "To put or bring into causal, complementary, parallel, or reciprocal relation."


But I know what you mean. Amazingly enough mechanical engineers are not perfectly spoken nor are they masters of the English language........what a shock

Cheers.

[cnavarro]

I've gone through the Porsche approved lists for 3/04 and 2/06 and here are the approved oils that according to manufacter's web sites have not been reformulated to API SM.

Agip Tecsint 0w40, 5w40 - SL
Agip Extra HTS 5w40 - SL
Aral High Tronic 5w40 - SL
BP Visco 7000 0w40 - SL
BP VIsco 7000 Sport 5w50 - SL
BP Visco 5000 Turbo Diesel 5w40 - SL
Castrol TXT Softec 5w40 - SL
Castrol Syntec 5w40 - SL
Elf Excellium NF 5w40 - SL
Esso Ultron 5w40 - SL
Fuchs Silkolene Pro S 5w40 - SL
Morris Multilife 5w40 - SL
Motorex FS-X 0w40 - SJ
Motul 8100 Ester E-Tech 0w40 - SJ
Motul 8100 X-cess 5w40 - SL
Panolin Indy SV 5w40 - SL
Pentosin Pentosynth Pento High Performance 5w40 - SL
Pentosin Pentosynth TS 5w40 - SJ
Repsol Elite Competition 5w40 - SJ
Star Mega Synthetic 5w40 - SL
Shell Helix Ultra 0w40 - SL
Teboil Diamond 5w40 - SL
Valvoline Synpower 0w40 - SJ
Yacco VX600 5w40 - SL

I will point out that many of the above oils might come in an alternative 0w40 or 5w40 but if it's not shown, that means the other viscosity is an API SM rated oil.

A good example of 'reformulating' is Shell Helix Ultra 5w40 - it used to be an API SH but now is API SM. There are many excellent examples of this happening, Mobil's oils are just a few examples that we know about.

I will try to get the HTHS viscosities for the above oils, but that may take a bit more time. If you have any practical experience with, VOAs for, or technical data on any of the above oils, please PM me.

Also, if you have any other technical bulletins on oil other than the two dates mentioned, I'd love to see them.

[cnavarro]

It is worth noting that all the listed oils are VW 502 approved with exception of the Pentosin Pentosynth TS 5w40, which is an API SJ, and meets VW's more stringent 505.01 spec. Elf Excellium DID 5w40, although not a Porsche approved oil, is a 505.01 spec and is also API SJ. It might be worth taking a closer look at VW 505.01 spec oils, which are far and few between, compared to the 502.00 oils which outnumber the 505.01 by about six times.

Also interesting is that Mobil makes a specific 5w40 for this 505.01 spec, Mobil-SYNT S Special V 5W-40, which is API SJ!

http://www.inflekss.lv/index.php?cat=2&brand=MOBIL&grupa=1&id=7

[movin]

Brad Penn 20w-50 doesn't have an exceptional VOA. Alright HT,HS is important but the low zinc and phosphorus, no boron, makes this oil seem weak. Apparently I'm not alone one this either after checking BITOG site search year 2004. Some went on to say they would not use it it their high performance engines. So what has changed to make this oil desirable now?

[cnavarro]

I'm aware of those posted VOAs not being spectacular. They assure enough Zn and P to do the job (~1200ppm), with a much less aggressive detergent package that still manages to have a TBN of 10, meeting Porsche's minimum requirement there. Not being friction modified also helps. The Zn and P only do their job when the oil film is compromised. That's the whole point behind the HTHS vis.

If you go back and look, I never recommended the use of more than 1 bottle of EOS to a fill of M1 0w40, which would net right at 1200ppm Zn and P.

At least in my case I am supporting my recommendation of the Brad Penn based on now a year and a half of testing ranging from track to street use to pure dyno testing and spintron test results. It just plain works. UOA shows it performs just as well as the M1 V-Twin 20w50 and Amsoil Harley 20w50. Physical inspection upon teardowns of dyno mules, race engines, and cams from spintron back up Brad Penn's claims. I have full faith in their product providing adequate protection. I will not however claim that Brad Penn makes horsepower - we've seen on the dyno Royal Purple, Mobil 1 V-Twin, and Amsoil Harley all make 8-18 more HP (on everything from a small four cylinder type 1 to a new factory Porsche Cup engine).

Brad Penn is just a great choice for a cheaper oil with excellent protection. If you want even more Zn and P, then Swepco's the choice for you. That's what Jerry Woods uses and recommends - he is the one who put me onto the Swepco 306 in fact.

Brad Penn is very different in formulation from other oils - just like Swepco 306 could be considered just another CI-4 diesel oil, but it's not- it has a very unique package as well that makes it shine out better than other diesel oils. In fact, Swepco looks kind of like Harley's Syn 3 20w05, in that it uses high levels of Zn, P, and B.

Sure, if the Brad Penn had some boron too like the Swepco, it might be a bit better. But the boron is there in the SM oils only because they needed something to offset the loss of Zn and P, which there are plenty of papers that show that boron is a poor substitute and only works best with higher levels of Zn and P being present.

That is one reason I've kind of held off on doing VOAs on every new oil that comes out. It's pointless, since we have some proven solutions and my attempt above to try to find some alternative choices from the "approved" oil lists provided by Porsche.

[EPorsche]

Charles,
Are those oils listed for air cooled or water cooled? Just curious because I don't think many of us with older (mid year, SC, Carrera) would use such a then oil.

[Wavey]

Originally Posted by cnavarro

I will not however claim that Brad Penn makes horsepower - we've seen on the dyno Royal Purple, Mobil 1 V-Twin, and Amsoil Harley all make 8-18 more HP (on everything from a small four cylinder type 1 to a new factory Porsche Cup engine).

Whoa! If my head math is right, 10 quarts on Mobil 1 V-Twin = $100, 10 quarts of other quality oils = $50 max, mean of 8-18 range = 13 HP, therfore less than $4.00/HP? Compare that to other mods. Great protection + extremely cheap HP, even over many oil changes.

[RWebb]

Charles - another query -- do you have any sense of which of the 'better' oils are widely distributed?

e.g. if the BP costs an extra amt. to ship but one could buy the M1 V-twin locally, that further reduces the cost/performance...