Ultimate Motor Oil Thread or Why we hate CJ4/SM oils

[mgata]

Great advice, and since I would not be doing the oil change myself, I think I already know what I am going to do...it looks like Mobil 1 might be the winner. My other cars never leaked either, but then again, I started using Mobil1 1 Syn, since they had 5000 miles. I also saw the new Castrol Syn Power for "Classic" cars at Wal Mart one day, but then it dissapeared. I think this oil is too new for anyone to know if it has adequate protection for the air cooled vehicles.

[cnavarro]

Yeah, I'll second the Castrol Syntec 20w50 - I have an email from Castrol saying that it does not have as high of levels as GTX 20w50, but it's a bit higher than SM. I'm guessing it's probably at levels similar to m1 0w40 - when it does show up here, I'll buy a quart and test it though.

As far as the dino vs. syn and leaks, when I bought my 964 with 45,000 original miles, it was bone dry and had Castrol GTX 20w50 in it it's whole life according to the records. I put in 0w40 (when it was still good) and it started leaking everywhere- cam boxes, valve covers, oil return tubes, etc. Everything has been resealed since and was leak free with the 0w40 after replacing lots of seals. For what it's worth, Brad Penn is going in on Friday when I change the oil, which gets done every six months regardless of mileage (usually 1500-2500 mi).

[hcoles]

after all the reading of these oil threads... I'm starting to side with Steve W. and others to move toward more frequent changes always with filter change. I've used M1 15-50 for a long time but will change to BP. I found a place about 35 miles away that sells BP but I have to call to see if they have at least 2 cases. Of course the down side is having to do the change... the time and effort and recycling/etc. It also gets me in and around the engine and opens the opportunity to do a valve adjustment/check.

[Porsche_(razy]

Great information. I used Mobil 1 in a rebuilt motor and after 20k found my cams badly pitted. The manufacture advised me to never use Synthetic oil with a welded modified cam. She advised using VR1 racing. I have and after 25k on the new motor see no signs of extreme wear. DO your above suggestion still hold true. I change my oil, Oil filter and redo tappets at 7500 miles. The car is a daily driver.

[Brent Lineker]

Here in Canada we have Mobil 1 5W-50 high performance driving version readily available,the web site states that it meets SM(bad) but SL and CF and also ACEA specs A3,B3,B4.I am led to believe that if it meets the ACEA specs mentioned above that this would satisfy our needs as their specs have to have a minimum of zinc/phosphorus higher than the SM specs,how is this possible?If I use this oil should I also add some of new Delco EOS additive?

[moneymanager]

Brent...this is the question I asked much earlier in the thread. The answer is, apparently, that that oil is not good enough. Any problem is easily overcome however with one of the high zinc additives.

[Por_sha911]

I've been following this thread since day one. One observation and several questions:
1) It seems to me that it is far easier/cheaper to add an additive like EOS or Comp Cams Break-in Oil than to buy some super high priced hard to get oil. Yes?
2) I have read that some folks have gotten word that Castrol GTX has the needed amounts of zinc and phos. I would like to see some numbers. Can someone post this.
3) I have located EOS for my current oil. Do I put in the whole bottle per oil change?

[movin]

OK, I give up. I ordered Brad Penn from ebay, under $58 for 12qts. delivered across the country.

[RWebb]

I would avoid the Castrol GTX based on prior comments from SW - the gumming of the parts is likely some defect other than Zn or Boron or PO4 levels...

It ticks me off re the cost & availability also, but as I mentioned a while back, I am probably just going to treat it like a hard to find French wine and make a 5 hour round trip to Portlandia to go get it.

OTOH, I probably only need to change my oil 1x/year based on mileage, and the cost and convenience aren't really all that much on a yearly basis. Also, on another thread I was pointing out to somebody else why he shouldn't put low priced something or other into his high-performance, expensive, best car in the world sports car... so I should take my own medicine (just this once). I think we will all have to buckle down and "just do it" -- at least until more oils bring back some additive that compensates for the loss...

[cnavarro]

Originally Posted by Porsche_(razy

Great information. I used Mobil 1 in a rebuilt motor and after 20k found my cams badly pitted. The manufacture advised me to never use Synthetic oil with a welded modified cam. She advised using VR1 racing. I have and after 25k on the new motor see no signs of extreme wear. DO your above suggestion still hold true. I change my oil, Oil filter and redo tappets at 7500 miles. The car is a daily driver.

VR-1 was recently reformulated and I just recently had a well known 356 race engine builder loose his own engine to the new VR-1. He has now swarn off all Valvoline products!

I'm sure you had a cam from Webcams - your problem had nothing to do with the oil being synthetic but that it was reformulated and had lower Zn and P. All that is buying you more time with the VR-1 is that it does have a very high flash point and HTHS viscosity, albeit very low Zn and P.

[cnavarro]

Originally Posted by Brent Lineker

Here in Canada we have Mobil 1 5W-50 high performance driving version readily available,the web site states that it meets SM(bad) but SL and CF and also ACEA specs A3,B3,B4.I am led to believe that if it meets the ACEA specs mentioned above that this would satisfy our needs as their specs have to have a minimum of zinc/phosphorus higher than the SM specs,how is this possible?If I use this oil should I also add some of new Delco EOS additive?

If an oil bottle has an API SM rating on it, you can ignore everything else on the bottle.

What is damned strange is that the ACEA mandates a min 1000 ppm for Zn (which most if not every ACEA oil that is SM rated is set at, like M1 0w40), which goes against the limits imposed by the API for an SM oil. What happens is that only the lighter grades of oil are required to be API compliant and there is lots of grey area here for anything thicker than a 10w30. The ACEA A3/B3 rating itself isn't a sole qualifier for an oil being safe for our engines. An ACEA oil with SJ levels of Zn (1200ppm) should be adequate.

The Mobil 1 5w50 has a lower HTHS viscosity than Swepco 15w40, which doesn't say much for the quality of M1, especially when coupled with API SM levels of Zn and P.

[cnavarro]

Originally Posted by Por_sha911

I've been following this thread since day one. One observation and several questions:
1) It seems to me that it is far easier/cheaper to add an additive like EOS or Comp Cams Break-in Oil than to buy some super high priced hard to get oil. Yes?

No. There is more than oil than just Zn and P levels, and it is better to start with an oil that is formulated properly than to use a poorer performing oil and add supplements. The use of these Zn and P additives can be used if you really cannot find another oil or for one reason or another, can't wait for oil to be delivered, etc. Mobil 1 0w40 with more Zn and P still is a crappy oil with minimal protection in my opinion for an aircooled engine, especially because of it's very low HTHS viscosity.

Originally Posted by Por_sha911

2) I have read that some folks have gotten word that Castrol GTX has the needed amounts of zinc and phos. I would like to see some numbers. Can someone post this.

Yes. It does. But by that same token, I have had quite a few shops tell me that even though with GTX they are not seeing outright failures, they are seeing wear progress at faster rates than compared to use of Brad Penn 20w50. I have said since that if you use GTX, change it often - like every 3 months/3000 miles (some even say more often!). And make sure you use the high mileage formulation of the 20w50. The normal one in our field testing sheered down to a 30wt in 800 miles and used up 30% of the Zn and P!

For comparison, Brad Penn, RP, M1 V-Twin, Amsoil all used up about 10-15% of the Zn and P and did not shear in viscosity in that same 800 miles.

Originally Posted by Por_sha911

3) I have located EOS for my current oil. Do I put in the whole bottle per oil change?

If you are using an SM or CJ rated oil, yes, the whole bottle of EOS. Mind you, a whole bottle of EOS will only raise the Zn and P by 200 ppm, so a CJ-4 will then have API SJ levels and an SM will have roughly CJ-4 levels.

[cnavarro]

Originally Posted by RWebb

I would avoid the Castrol GTX based on prior comments from SW - the gumming of the parts is likely some defect other than Zn or Boron or PO4 levels...

You're spot on there. If the oil isn't up to the task, the Zn and P get used up faster. It's a good indicator of the quality of the oil. That's why I honestly believe the Brad Penn, even with it's lowly 1200 ppm Zn and 1100 ppm P, is as good as the more expensive RP max cycle, M1 v-twin, and Amsoil harley based on used oil analysis from the above oils in field testing conducted that I oversaw.

Originally Posted by RWebb

OTOH, I probably only need to change my oil 1x/year based on mileage, and the cost and convenience aren't really all that much on a yearly basis. Also, on another thread I was pointing out to somebody else why he shouldn't put low priced something or other into his high-performance, expensive, best car in the world sports car... so I should take my own medicine (just this once). I think we will all have to buckle down and "just do it" -- at least until more oils bring back some additive that compensates for the loss...

That's why I still recommend Brad Penn over the M1 V-Twin, RP Max Cycle, or Amsoil Harley. At the end of the day, those of us who don't drive our 911's every day (and lots of miles on those days), still need to really change our oil twice a year. And the Brad Penn does have a bit more detergency than the above synthetics, but not by much - Brad Penn ~10 and the others are ~8.

Sure, synthetic motorcycle oils I mentioned have more Zn and P and might make more HP than the Brad Penn, but I can guarantee you that they also will do more damage to the catalytic converter, if you still have it. In fact, the Brad Penn should not adversely affect the cat, or at least any more than Castrol GTX would.

[cnavarro]

Wow. Now that is the most I think I have ever posted this early in the morning.

Speaking of the devil, I'm off to change the oil in my 911. Brad Penn 20w50 for me. I want it changed before we head off for Rennsport next week- if the weather is good, we're driving the 911.

[dmwallace]

Charles,

Thanks for continuing to educate us on this topic!

[JBO]

...sounds like a mix of 1/2 Brad Penn and 1/2 V-twin or Max Cycle would be the ultimate, and might give some extra protection with 1/2 being synthetic. How does that sound, Charles?

[Wavey]

Originally Posted by cnavarro

Sure, synthetic motorcycle oils I mentioned have more Zn and P and might make more HP than the Brad Penn, but I can guarantee you that they also will do more damage to the catalytic converter, if you still have it. In fact, the Brad Penn should not adversely affect the cat, or at least any more than Castrol GTX would.

A clarification and a question, please, Charles:

- Would you agree that for a 911 with NO converter, driven 5K a year with one oil change, and in light of the additional HP, M1 Vtwin would be a good/smart/reasonable choice?

- Is it possible to have too much Zn and P (ie EOS added to M1 Vtwin)?

Here's another thank-you for the excellent education you've provided.

[HarryD]

I saw this posted inthe Rennlist e-mail server BBS. For this much work, I would just as soon use Brad Penn or Swepco. Others may find this a good way to go.

"I spent some time talking with Redline Tech support. We discussed current ZDDP levels of motor oils.

It seems like there are couple possibilities to keep anti-wear agents at proper level.

1. First solution is to use Redline weight 50 Racing Oil. It is really 15W50. It has the highest level of ZDDP at 2600 PPM. It contains reduced levels of detergents, but tech support stated that as long as oil was changed at 3K intervals that should not be the issue... I still like the proper levels of detergents so I prefer more "street" oil blends for everyday use...

2. Second solution is to use 20W50 High Performance 4 stroke Motorcycle Oil. The anti-wear ZDDP level is at 2600 PPM also combined with detergent package.

3. The third solution is to do a 50/50 blend of 20W50 High Performance 4 stroke Motorcycle Oil and 15W50 or 10W40 Redline Motor Oil. Redline Motor oil had a minimum content of ZDDP of 800 PPM and combined with 2600PPM of High Performance 4 stroke Motorcycle would provide about 1700 PPM ZDDP level.

4. The forth solution is to use 66/33 blend... 2cans of Redline Motor oil to 1 can of 20W50 High Performance 4 stroke Motorcycle Oil used as the ZDDP booster. This would provide around 1400 PPM level of ZDDP... same as the original ZDDP levels before they have been reduced in SM oil specifications...."

[mgata]

As for me, I think I made up my mind. I will buy the Brad Penn, then suppliment may be with a bottle of Mobil 1 V twin when I need to add. Can't hurt, I don't think.

[mtbguy]

Originally Posted by mgata

As for me, I think I made up my mind. I will buy the Brad Penn, then suppliment may be with a bottle of Mobil 1 V twin when I need to add. Can't hurt, I don't think.

Great minds think alike, I suppose! I just change my oil and used two quarts of the V-twin oil and the rest was Brad Penn 20/50 racing. Hopefully the best of both worlds, and I should have a pretty nice synthetic blend with adequate ZDDP.