Ultimate Motor Oil Thread or Why we hate CJ4/SM oils

[cnavarro]

Don't add anything to the Brad Penn. Just use it as it is, we've tested it, it works just fine compared to oils with more Zn and P. You are making this harder than it has to be :-)

I'm running the Brad Penn 20w50 for the winter months, since the car is garaged and won't see cold starts below 32F. Brad Penn says it's good to 20F for cold starts. And yes, I have the choice of any oil and I still chose the Brad Penn to put in.

[Dennis Kalma]

Ok, I am curious. We are not the only car owners with this sort of problem...my Datsun 240Z had similar lifter arrangements as the 911, plus pretty well every muscle car, sports car and toy car that is older than 10 years will have the same issue.

What I am wrestling with is:

1. Is it really a problem? How good is the documented proof that our engines will wear excessively?

2. Are the solutions raised here the best ones that align to practices in marques with similar problems?

3. Why are the oil manufacturers (who are always looking to make a buck), not offering a solution for the older vehicle? Who do I have to yell at?

Dennis

[cnavarro]

Yes, this is a big problem, and between many shop owners, we think it will only get worse before it gets better. I get calls from shop managers maintaining new Porsche Cup cars having cam & bearing failures running the factory recommended Mobil 1 0w40. This is also further spread than just with Porsches. This has been a big problem with pushrod flat tappet VW type 1, type 4, and Porsche 356/912 engines for the better part of the last decade and outside our world for decades, going back to the 70s. Lots of SAE papers on the topic if you want to pay to read them. I have copies of every document oil related out of the SAE in my library. Very well documented.

As far as the reformulation and who is to blame, there are many different culprits. The most obvious, is emissions controls and goverment mandated warranties on these devices going longer and longer. The ZDDP kills catalytic converters. OEMs want to make sure they don't have to spend extra $$$ on warranty replacement of expensive emissions controls.

You have CAFE and federally mandated fuel economy legislation. Oils get thinner and more friction modifiers are put in, trading off fuel economy for protection. In most cases, the new oils do supply adequate protection for most new cars.

Another problem are long drain intervals. To get very long drain intervals, oils have to be low SAPS, so less ZDDP or even Zinc Free anti-wear additives have to be used. The ZDDP reacts with combustion byproducts, forming acids, reducing the TBN of oil faster than if alternative AW additives are used. To combat the acid formation, there are other solutions, like organic moly, etc. Low SAPS oils are used with BMW, Mercedes, etc to get 20-30k mile flexible drain intervals versus fixed drain intervals of 5-10k with mid or high SAPS oils. Long drain intervals deplete already low Zn and P, exposing engines to un-necessary wear. Hint- Porsche cut back their drain intervals this year greatly, as they were advocating 20k drain intervals last year.

Another point - documented in the journals with the development of the SL and SM oils that since the older two valve SOHC or pushrod engines are no longer being manufactured, that they see no need to test new formulations in the older engines. This is in print! Really, the newest API standards should be listed as 2004 or later, or something to that affect. The engines they test the new oils with are totally different in design and loads that components see.

This is all on my website. I've tried to be as thorough as humanly possible in researching the problem and suggesting solutions.

So here we go, another possible solution for cars that are low mileage, not daily drivers. Valvoline VR-1 NSL (not-street-legal) 20w50, both the non-syn and syn versions. It goes for about $6/qt not including shipping on Amazon, but is available from Napa for a bit more. The used oil analysis from my 911 with about 1500 mi over six months came back very good. I posted it on my site for everyone to see:

http://www.lnengineering.com/vr1_nsl20w50uoa.pdf

The starting TBN was about 7. So in 1500 mi, it was down to 4.6. It should be changed at about 3.5, if you go by the rule of thumb to drain at 50% of the starting TBN, which means about 700-1000 more miles.

It takes time to do real world testing. It's more than just doing VOAs and choosing an oil with lots of Zn and P. We have lots of feedback to show that Brad Penn and Swepco both work very satisfactorily.

[mgata]

I just bought two cases of Brad Penn from a distributor in Tampa. I had to drive 70 miles each way to get it as the distributor wasn't really much into shipping it. The name of the company is Neumann Oil. They sell the 20/50 racing oil for 37 USD/case. Now, the way I drive, I'll be set for the next two years.

[movin]

Thanks for the reassurance Charles. I've seen no one else so well versed in this subject.

[Steve@Rennsport]

Originally Posted by Dennis Kalma

Ok, I am curious. We are not the only car owners with this sort of problem...my Datsun 240Z had similar lifter arrangements as the 911, plus pretty well every muscle car, sports car and toy car that is older than 10 years will have the same issue.

What I am wrestling with is:

1. Is it really a problem? How good is the documented proof that our engines will wear excessively?

2. Are the solutions raised here the best ones that align to practices in marques with similar problems?

3. Why are the oil manufacturers (who are always looking to make a buck), not offering a solution for the older vehicle? Who do I have to yell at?

Dennis

Hi Dennis:

Let me offer some input on your questions.

1) Yessir, it sure is. We began noticing unusual wear in certain engine parts about 3 years ago; certain parts that NEVER wore out unless there were extenuating circumstances showed major distress. Extended oil change intervals and the use of some oils exacerbated the problems.

2) I read a lot of trade journals and speak with some compatriots who work on Porsche, Mercedes, BMW, and Chevrolet automobiles report the same issues with cams, rocker arms, cam followers, bearings and in some cases, piston rings. Their comments mirror my own observations over this time frame that has seen drastic reductions in the ZDDP content of today's oils.

3) There is nobody to yell at. The car makers have discovered two things: selling parts is VERY profitable since car margins are quite slim in most instances, and fuel economy both sells cars and keeps the EPA "boogyman" off their back with CAFE penalities. They do not care what happens to your car after the warranty has expired and if you think the auto manufacturers harbor altruistic thoughts about service intervals and recommendations, you are now living a fantasy,...

As they used to say in those Dodge commercials; "The rules have changed".

[mca]

Originally Posted by HarryD

Added 9/22/2007
Valvoline VR-1 20W-50 -it is marked "Non-Street Legal".

I just called NAPA about the Valvoline. Apparently it is not called "VR-1" but simply "racing oil" marked "not street legal". Also, it is a full synthetic that costs $81 per case.

Just some fyi.

[RWebb]

"To get very long drain intervals, oils have to be low SAPS"

SAPS = ??

[cnavarro]

From shell's site: "LowSAPS literally means lubricants with low concentrations of sulphated-ash, phosphorus and sulphur. These substances can harm the performance of exhaust treatment systems such as catalytic converters and Diesel Particulate filters (DPFs), impairing engine and emissions performance."

http://www.shell.com/home/content/technology-en/refining_and_supply/refining_innovations/low_saps_lubes/low_saps_lubes_11122006.html

[jimmcc]

I'll be switching to Brad Penn this week for a 1995 993 that has just rolled over 100k miles after we replace the valve cover and chain housing seals which are leaking like sieves. I plan to do an oil analysis at the next change and will report the findings.

A few questions:

1. Should I stick to a change interval of about 4,000 miles or extend the period?

2. Do these oil requirements extend to the end of the 993 line from 1997 on with OBDII?

3. Is BP the way to go for a PCA track prepared 1980 930?

Thanks to Charles, Steve, Jerry Woods and all the others who have contributed to this effort.

Good work.

[movin]

20W-50 sounds a little too viscous for a 993. How about 15W-40 or 10W-40? Doesn't the 993 have hydraulic cam adjusters?

[Don Plumley]

I've seldom read so much and understood so little. Thanks to all the contributors.

My 993 (hydro lifters) sees 6-12 track days a year. At the beginning of this season I changed the oil and filters with Mobil 1 15W-50 from Costco. It says "New, Fully Synthetic" on the front, on the back it says "API SM, SL/CF". Am I to assume this does not have the sufficient goodies my engine wants? If yes, should I buy a bottle or so of the engine break in stuff you recommend?

When I change the oil next year, is the consensus to switch to non fully synthetic Brad Penn or one of the Royal Purple's? Or should I hunt down the Valvoline racing stuff since I stomp on my engine so hard?

Thank you.

[jimmcc]

The 993 does have hydraulic adjusters.

I failed to mention this is Alabama and Porsche's recommendation for mineral based oils was either 15W-40 or 20W-50 for this area's temperature range. For Synthetic, 15W-40. I've experienced no problems with 20W-50 over the years but will be watching the Brad Penn.

Interestingly, the owner's manual calls for an API SH rated oil, a few letters away from the current off the sheld offerings.

[RWebb]

every few years the spec. changes and there is a new letter (in sequence) - I still remember SD and SE.

[dan79brooklyn]

Castrol is marketing their syntec 20-50 to classic car owners, they say it has the right stuff in it:

http://www.castrol.com/castrol/genericarticle.do?categoryId=82915470&contentId=7032644&CastrolLinkTrace=5001199955

[cnavarro]

Syntec 20w50 will be similar in Zn and P concentration to the Brad Penn. Here is what I got from Castrol when I contacted them:

"Thank you for contacting Castrol,

The new formula Syntec 20W-50 for clasic cars is actually API SM. The statement "Recommended for Classic Cars" should be visible in the middle of the back.

Note that the Zinc levels (actually the Sulfur and Phosphorus levels) in the API SM / ILSAC GF-4 viscosity grades are defined by a table of requirements but in basic terms 20W-50 is not held to the same requirements as the lower viscosity grades (5W-20, 0W-30, 5W-30, 10W-30); 20W-50 can be higher.

Current Syntec 20W-50 (for classic cars) is actually a modern premium quality API SM product that has been Zinc boosted to Zinc levels that are reminiscent of Zinc levels from historic API categories such as SG when flat tappet cams with high spring loads were common in the fleet.
For reference, note that the API SM category has the most rigorous passenger car engine oil (PCO) test performance requirements in the history of the API PCO categories.

The level of Zinc in the new Syntec 20W-50 is a minimum of 1200 ppm, which will provide excellent anti-wear protection for the cam and lifters in a flat-tappet cam engine.

We estimate that Castrol SYNTEC 20W50 Classic Car formula should be widely available at retail locations by October 2007. We cannot disclose exactly where the product is currently available, although it has been ordered by several key customers. Unfortunately, we can only control when we ship the product, not when our customers' inventory allows it to make its way to the shelf.

Castrol Consumer Relations"

[911-32]

Excellent thread and a big thanks to Charles and others.

Being in the UK, we don't seem to be able to buy Brad Penn or M1 V-twin. We have RP but I can't find "Max Cycle". We have Amsoil Harley at GBP12 for 900mls. That adds up to over USD264 an oil change!

I have 2 questions:

First, if you are chasing hp (for a trackday (not race) car) and good wear protection with approx 2-3,000 miles changes, does anything fit the bill? or are they somewhat mutually exclusive?

Secondly, of the Porsche list posted earlier and pasted below, are any up to scratch for air cooled motors? We can get all of them fairly easily in the EU.

Agip Tecsint 0w40, 5w40 - SL
Agip Extra HTS 5w40 - SL
Aral High Tronic 5w40 - SL
BP Visco 7000 0w40 - SL
BP VIsco 7000 Sport 5w50 - SL
BP Visco 5000 Turbo Diesel 5w40 - SL
Castrol TXT Softec 5w40 - SL
Castrol Syntec 5w40 - SL
Elf Excellium NF 5w40 - SL
Esso Ultron 5w40 - SL
Fuchs Silkolene Pro S 5w40 - SL
Morris Multilife 5w40 - SL
Motorex FS-X 0w40 - SJ
Motul 8100 Ester E-Tech 0w40 - SJ
Motul 8100 X-cess 5w40 - SL
Panolin Indy SV 5w40 - SL
Pentosin Pentosynth Pento High Performance 5w40 - SL
Pentosin Pentosynth TS 5w40 - SJ
Repsol Elite Competition 5w40 - SJ
Star Mega Synthetic 5w40 - SL
Shell Helix Ultra 0w40 - SL
Teboil Diamond 5w40 - SL
Valvoline Synpower 0w40 - SJ
Yacco VX600 5w40 - SL

Again, many thanks.

RB

[cnavarro]

I posted that list to try to pull out some ACEA approved oils with API SL or better (SJ) levels of Zn and P.

Of all those oils, only one is VW 505.01 approved, which is a much more stringent standard than Porsche's spec or the ACEA standards, and that is the Pentosin Pentosynth TS 5w40, which is an SJ oil.

That said, I have never used or seen the majority of those oils! :-)

In deferring back to the VW 505.01 standard as a rerference point, Mobil 1 0w40 nor the 5w40 truck and diesel meet the VW standard; Mobil does make a Mobil 1 5w40 oil that is 505.01 specific, so it must be more demanding on lubrication requirements of the VW TDI engine, but alas, that mobil product is not sold in the US nor does it carry Porsche approval.

[Blue3.2]

So will Brad Penn/Swepco/Mobile 1 v-twin benefit our newer Porsches (water-cooled boxsters and carreras), or should we stick with the newer SM formulations?

Great thread, by the way. Thanks especially to Charles and Steve for lending their expertise and experience.

[cnavarro]

Well, if the car is under warranty, one should keep using approved oils, but there is nothing to say you have to use Mobil 1. Just me personally, if I were to own a new water-cooled Porsche, I wouldn't use an API SM rated oil. There are plenty of API SH-SL oils that are ACEA approved AND are on the "approved" list.

I also would not use long drain intervals, or at least anything near as long as Porsche has been advocating. Again, this is my opinion and I don't own a water-cooled Porsche. :-)