Ultimate Motor Oil Thread or Why we hate CJ4/SM oils

[The Curator]

I need to thank Charles Navarro for his amazingly informative articles on his LN engineering website. I tried his recommended Brad Penn Racing 20-50 and I am blown away by the quality of this oil! I have been borderline obsessed for more than 20 years with the details of oils and how they affect wear on engines. Having made many mistakes through the years like using Mobil-1 in older engines and creating leaks, I know am convinced of the superiority of Brad Penn racing oil. It is also so economical that I am using it in our daily drivers and in our small fleet of company vehicles. All engines have responded very well to it.

Some will argue about the fact that any oil will do well in a modern car, but I am not interested in replacing a car every few years. On average our daily drivers and fleet cars get replaced when they hit about 250K miles. Until now I tailored various synthetic and semi-synthetic oils + additives (mostly Tuf Oil) for various vehicles, according to how they perform. One of my problems was also finding a continuous supply of the same oil. All the mass merchandisers and parts stores seem to carry what is profitable. Some products disappear from the shelves after a few months…

I was not aware of the EPA changes and new oil formulations but had noticed in the last months/year a drop in fuel efficiency on three of the cars (those that have in board computers), yet there was no change in the driving routine or conditions. I do not know if they are related but would it not be ironic if the EPA mandates ends up burning more fuel with all its consequences. I hope that all cars continue to do well on Brad Penn and that I can standardize my service MO. Again thank you for the best oil article I have read in years!

[axl911]

Also want to thank Charles N. for this topic.

I used to run Castrol MTX but found out it was ****. My topend rebuilt 993 would burn oil and leak on that crap. Switched over to M1 V-twin made the engine happier, no more leak or burn, but expensive. Just switched over to BP and is very happy with its (and the car's) performance. Plus it is 1/3 the price of the M1 stuff.

--
anthony

[Wavey]

Another overdue thanks to Charles for all the information he's disseminated. I just did an oil change using Brad Penn 20W-50 and a Mobil 1 filter. The BP is noticeably more viscous, at least at ambient temp, than the M1 15W-50 I used to run. I heard a very light, very short clatter when I first fired up but I'm guessing that was the chain tensioner filling up and adjusting to the heavier oil. It also seems to take a but longer for the oil to warm up (again, because of the viscosity difference?) but once the engine is up to temp, I'd swear it's making a bit more power and torque. Probably a placebo, but I'm happy. Other than that I don't percieve any difference - no oil leaks or smoking with the M1, or with the BP.

Charles, could you please comment on the recent debate regarding the placement of the relief valve in the OEM oil filters VS the Mobil 1 filter?

[teenerted1]

not a p-car related question but an oil related one

any recomendations for a good 2-stroke oil?

friend recomends... Motul 600t

any others i should be looking at?

[911 Dog]

Charles, What do you think about Valvoline 4-stroke motorcycle oil? API rating SF/SG/SJ

Dave

[wastintime]

More out of curiosity than anything else, I've been reading through page after page of this thread and haven't found a single mention of what the actual optimum level of ZDDP is in a motor oil.

the new legal standard is no more than 800ppm

I've never run anything but Mobil1 15-50 in my car and don't really plan on stopping, but according to Mobil whether you're buying EP or not it has 1200ppm of ZDDP which is 50% more than the current standard.

So what's the actual number you should be trying to hit?

[Steve@Rennsport]

Originally Posted by teenerted1

not a p-car related question but an oil related one

any recomendations for a good 2-stroke oil?

friend recomends... Motul 600t

any others i should be looking at?

I always had excellent success with Golden Spectro in all my Husky's, Maico's, CZ's, etc. I thought it was the closest thing to Castor bean oil, without the mess.

[Steve@Rennsport]

Originally Posted by wastintime

More out of curiosity than anything else, I've been reading through page after page of this thread and haven't found a single mention of what the actual optimum level of ZDDP is in a motor oil.

the new legal standard is no more than 800ppm

I've never run anything but Mobil1 15-50 in my car and don't really plan on stopping, but according to Mobil whether you're buying EP or not it has 1200ppm of ZDDP which is 50% more than the current standard.

So what's the actual number you should be trying to hit?

I think Charles had that on his website the last time I looked but the minimum should be 1200ppm for Zn & P to optimize wear control and protection. Concentrations over 1400ppm are OK for race engines that get oil changes after each event.

[richardlw]

The right amount of ZDDP depends on the base oil and its strength.



Click the link for the report in my signature line for details.

[cnavarro]

Originally Posted by richardlw

The right amount of ZDDP depends on the base oil and its strength.

You really don't want to be using motorcycle oils for their lack of friction modifiers.

Click the link for the report in my signature line for details on both of these points.

Well the majority of the motorcycle oils discussed and used here are friction modified, most with heavy doses of Moly. Two examples are Mobil 1 MX4T or V-Twin. Both are basically thicker versions of the old Mobil 1R Nascar oil (no longer made) and are closer to the old Mobil 1 from the 90s than what is now sold.

It's worth mentioning that actually an oil that isn't friction modified tends to have better wear performance - that's the reason Cummins recommends against friction modified oils in their engines because of known wear issues, but it is very hard to find an oil that isn't friction modified. The only thing you can loose (not always the case) is a bit of fuel efficiency and/or horsepower, but this depends more on the engine than the oil from our own dyno testing. Brad Penn is one such example of an oil that isn't friction modified, for those who did not know.

[cnavarro]

Originally Posted by Steve@Rennsport

I think Charles had that on his website the last time I looked but the minimum should be 1200ppm for Zn & P to optimize wear control and protection. Concentrations over 1400ppm are OK for race engines that get oil changes after each event.

The required Zn and P levels also have to do partially with the detergent used and the overall detergency of the oil.

Where the Brad Penn only originally needed about 1200ppm (they increased it a tad just to make users sleep better at night last year), Mobil 1 15w50 with it's use of a higher level of Ca-based detergent probably would be better with Zn and P at 1400ppm, if not higher. This would be in line with the Zn and P to Ca detergent ratio found in Swepco 306, which we know works well.

Looking back at what levels oils back in the 80s, an SG/SH oil, like the Mobil 1 motorcycle oils probably would be perfectly fine for daily use as well since they have levels similar to what would have been used then- just keep an eye on drain interval since they are even slightly less detergent than Brad Penn is.

True race oils typically have about 2500ppm Zn and P and are usually non-detergent, requiring that the oil is changed literally after every event, which would not be practical for the street nor friendly to a catalytic converter for sure!

[Flieger]

Does "friction modified" mean that the viscosity is greater, requiring more force to shear the oil molecules past each other due to the Molybdenum? I would think this would rob horsepower. What is the advantage of "friction modification"? More specifically, what is the advantage in an engine? I could see the advantage in a transaxle with Porsche syncros, as is the case with Swepco, where the added friction would assist the synchronization of the rotating component speeds.

Also, how does Calcium clean an engine?

[cnavarro]

Originally Posted by Flieger

Does "friction modified" mean that the viscosity is greater, requiring more force to shear the oil molecules past each other due to the Molybdenum? I would think this would rob horsepower. What is the advantage of "friction modification"? More specifically, what is the advantage in an engine? Does I could see the advantage in a transaxle with Porsche syncros, as is the case with Swepco, where the added friction would assist the synchronization of the rotating component speeds.

Long story short, a friction modified oil has friction modifiers, has nothing to do with viscosity. Moly and all its various species fall under this category, but there are others. General idea with moly is that moly forms a glassy plate-like film on parts, builds up, then shears off. This process is repeated perpetually.

Also, how does Calcium clean an engine?

There are different kinds of detergents. Calcium-based are typically used in diesel engines or where long drain intervals are required, because it is the most stable form of detergent. That's how you have Mercedes and BMW going to ridiculously long drain intervals. There are other kinds, including Magnesium and Sodium-based, both of which aren't as stable or long lived, but on the flip side, are not as aggressive as Ca-based, which are known for even cleaning anti-wear films off wear surfaces they are so effective.

[Flieger]

Thanks for the info.

Where does Castrol GTX 20W50 fit in? Sorry if this is in the body of the thread. It has been a while since I have gone through it.

By the way, my dad looking over my shoulder says "Hi" He is from New Lenox, IL, near Chicago.

[Thrlls]

Originally Posted by cnavarro

There are different kinds of detergents. Calcium-based are typically used in diesel engines or where long drain intervals are required, because it is the most stable form of detergent. That's how you have Mercedes and BMW going to ridiculously long drain intervals. There are other kinds, including Magnesium and Sodium-based, both of which aren't as stable or long lived, but on the flip side, are not as aggressive as Ca-based, which are known for even cleaning anti-wear films off wear surfaces they are so effective.

Charles,
So is this what Amsoil has too?
I've been told the intervals have some ridiculous mileage like 25K miles!
I currently have Amsoil HD Motorcycle 20w/50 in my car, with a case of BP (which I got from you) waiting for the next change.

[Flieger]

I did a search and re-read the thread to find out about the Castrol GTX I have been using.

I was shocked to find how bad it is and the extra wear it causes compared to Brad Penn 20W50. I had been using the Castrol for its price, ease of availablity and the semingly good levels of Zn and P.

I will be switching to Brad Penn for my oil change in the near future.

I drive only on weekends for about 100 miles a weekend and the car sits in the garage the rest of the time. I see the detergants can be bad in this situation to remove coatings and films and be more aggressive on the light alloy parts. It also negates the Zn and P which would help lubricate the upper valvetrain for the agressive driving I do at 6000+ RPM with my RS spec 2.7 MFI motor.

Thanks for the interesting and valuable information contained in this thread.

[cnavarro]

Originally Posted by Thrlls

Charles,
So is this what Amsoil has too?
I've been told the intervals have some ridiculous mileage like 25K miles!
I currently have Amsoil HD Motorcycle 20w/50 in my car, with a case of BP (which I got from you) waiting for the next change.

Yup, but if you use the Series 2000 Racing or motorcycle Amsoil formulations, they aren't anywhere near as detergent as their street oils that have VERY long drain intervals.

[donstevens]

Originally Posted by cnavarro

Long story short, a friction modified oil has friction modifiers, has nothing to do with viscosity. Moly and all its various species fall under this category, but there are others. General idea with moly is that moly forms a glassy plate-like film on parts, builds up, then shears off. This process is repeated perpetually.



There are different kinds of detergents. Calcium-based are typically used in diesel engines or where long drain intervals are required, because it is the most stable form of detergent. That's how you have Mercedes and BMW going to ridiculously long drain intervals. There are other kinds, including Magnesium and Sodium-based, both of which aren't as stable or long lived, but on the flip side, are not as aggressive as Ca-based, which are known for even cleaning anti-wear films off wear surfaces they are so effective.

That is not to say high calcium levels are all bad. I have a PDF of an oil analysis report where I drove over 26000 miles (in well used BMW 528e) on one batch of Amsoil with very low wear metals.

How do I post a PDF here?

Don

[Lukesportsman]

Sorry if this is redundant but just ran across this picking parts for my other beasts:

http://www.mossmotors.com/Shop/ViewProducts.aspx?PlateIndexID=65924&utm_source=British138&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Emailer

http://www.mossmotors.com/graphics/products/pdf/220-810_220-815_INST.pdf

Just wanted throw another idea into the mix since its specifically for our problems. Cheers!

[Flieger]

I helped my buddy change the oil and bleed the brakes on his '95 BMW E36 M3.

He uses Redline synthetic and it smells "funny". I've heard this is a trait of most synthetics.

What causes the distinctive "funny" smell of synthetics?