Ultimate Motor Oil Thread or Why we hate CJ4/SM oils

[old man neri]

Right now I am leaning towards one of the elf products because it's available locally.

[RWebb]

JBO - I am leery of mixing different oils, esp. from different manfs.!
That is b/c you don't know everything in the entire additive package and it is unclear how they will perform in a mix. It is even possible for one additive to interfere with another - a "negative synergy." CN will have a much better read on that however.

"head off for Rennsport" -- Charles, have a great trip! And thanks so much for all the work you've done to figure out this conundrum for us all.

[HarryD]

WOW, over 14,000 looks and over 300 comments!

When I started this thread, I did not think it would get so much "traction". I think we all owe Charles a huge thanks for helping us keep this straight.

Seems our chioces are fairly limited but at least they are still there.

Originally Posted by cnavarro

Speaking of the devil, I'm off to change the oil in my 911. Brad Penn 20w50 for me. I want it changed before we head off for Rennsport next week- if the weather is good, we're driving the 911.

I am pleased to see that he has time for some fun (going to Rennsport). Have a great time!

[SGB]

I think the Brad Penn and Comp Cams people owe you a retainer. This thread has been a great resource. Thanks to all for the input.

[cnavarro]

Well, my trip for an oil change snowballed. The clutch pedal just didn't feel right - the clutch slave cylinder and line were leaking. Should be fixed before Rennsport though.

My wife is taking the friday before and monday after rennsport off so she can drive with me to Florida - I will be set up actually in the Literature meet at Rennsport with Nickies, billet connecting rods, and I'll bring as much oil research with me as I can for those who are there and want to stop and say hi.

Ok, off to the post office to do those dreaded international shipments!

[cnavarro]

Originally Posted by JBO

...sounds like a mix of 1/2 Brad Penn and 1/2 V-twin or Max Cycle would be the ultimate, and might give some extra protection with 1/2 being synthetic. How does that sound, Charles?

If you are going to go that route, I guess you could even mix 50% M1 15w50 and 50% M1 V-Twin 20w50. I guess those using 0w40 could do a blend with the M1 MX4T 10w40 too. This would give you Zn and P levels in the 1200-1400ppm range. I would feel more comfortable blending a M1 product with another M1 product in that volume.

If you are going to go through the hassle of having Brad Penn shipped to you, it probably will be cheaper in the long run just to run it straight, rather than blending it.

[cnavarro]

Originally Posted by Wavey

A clarification and a question, please, Charles:

- Would you agree that for a 911 with NO converter, driven 5K a year with one oil change, and in light of the additional HP, M1 Vtwin would be a good/smart/reasonable choice?

If you've already removed the cat, then sure thing the M1 V-Twin would be a great choice.

Is it possible to have too much Zn and P (ie EOS added to M1 Vtwin)?

I would never use the EOS to boost the Zn and P higher than .12-.14% (1200-1400ppm), especially in the M1 V-Twin, and I would never use more than one bottle of EOS. I really did like the EOS since it was a decent volume and when blended with 12 quarts, raised the Zn and P of 0w40 m1 to 1200 ppm, which would be a nice addition for a new water cooled 911 while not hurting the catalytic converter. Some of the new products out there are VERY concentrated, meaning you only should use 1 oz or even less, means people are adding too much.

I would never want to vastly alter the chemical composition of the oil to that degree- if that what it needs to work properly, then you're better off finding a different oil :-)

From the SAE papers I have seen, having too much Zn and P won't hurt anything, it just makes reduces the TBN faster as the Zn and P breaks down and reacts with combustion byproducts. I guess having too much Zn and P could also cause deposits to form - that's why the EOS was formulated with an equally healthy dose of Ca to add some detergency.

[cnavarro]

Originally Posted by HarryD

I saw this posted inthe Rennlist e-mail server BBS. For this much work, I would just as soon use Brad Penn or Swepco. Others may find this a good way to go.

"I spent some time talking with Redline Tech support. We discussed current ZDDP levels of motor oils.

It seems like there are couple possibilities to keep anti-wear agents at proper level.

1. First solution is to use Redline weight 50 Racing Oil. It is really 15W50. It has the highest level of ZDDP at 2600 PPM. It contains reduced levels of detergents, but tech support stated that as long as oil was changed at 3K intervals that should not be the issue... I still like the proper levels of detergents so I prefer more "street" oil blends for everyday use...

I was told this was a non-detergent oil and even for racing it was supposed to be changed after a track event. This was also verified by a customer of mine who used to use Redline racing oil in his car. He's now using Brad Penn.

2. Second solution is to use 20W50 High Performance 4 stroke Motorcycle Oil. The anti-wear ZDDP level is at 2600 PPM also combined with detergent package.

I like this option better than the true non-detergent racing oil for the street and I would put it in the same category as the RP Max Cycle, M1 V-Twin, and Amsoil Harley. Just with Zn and P levels that high, make sure to install a cat bypass at your next oil change :-)

3. The third solution is to do a 50/50 blend of 20W50 High Performance 4 stroke Motorcycle Oil and 15W50 or 10W40 Redline Motor Oil. Redline Motor oil had a minimum content of ZDDP of 800 PPM and combined with 2600PPM of High Performance 4 stroke Motorcycle would provide about 1700 PPM ZDDP level.

4. The forth solution is to use 66/33 blend... 2cans of Redline Motor oil to 1 can of 20W50 High Performance 4 stroke Motorcycle Oil used as the ZDDP booster. This would provide around 1400 PPM level of ZDDP... same as the original ZDDP levels before they have been reduced in SM oil specifications...."

Either of these don't seem as too bad of an option. I have even heard of people doing a 50/50 blend of the VR-1 non-street-legal with the street version that is fully detergent.

I'm thinking that blending one manufacturer's product with another of that same manufacturer as long as the viscosities are similar shouldn't hurt anything. Like I said, I've done that before myself.

[THECARREAPER]

my head hurts. this is an amazing thread. i am going to look into BG MOA additive to see what it is, and if it has the zinc stuff in it.

i have been running Castrol GTX in my 911's, carb Ferrari's and Lamborghini's for years. i change my oil every 3000 miles or 4 months, whichever comes first. i have friends that are not " net savvy " and they have been devastated to hear about these changes in the oil formulas. they has extensive, and expensive car collections that need to be protected for the future gear heads.


i hope the oil companies can hear our typing, and feel our buying power. they need to step up and make something for the older cars, especially air cooled.

[cnavarro]

Originally Posted by THECARREAPER

my head hurts.

Tell me about it :-) I opened pandora's box.

this is an amazing thread. i am going to look into BG MOA additive to see what it is, and if it has the zinc stuff in it.

BG MOA isn't anything spectacular with no more Zn and P than regular motor oil. It does have a healthy dose of moly and other stuff though. Probably safer just not to use it.

i have been running Castrol GTX in my 911's, carb Ferrari's and Lamborghini's for years. i change my oil every 3000 miles or 4 months, whichever comes first. i have friends that are not " net savvy " and they have been devastated to hear about these changes in the oil formulas. they has extensive, and expensive car collections that need to be protected for the future gear heads.

There are many in the same boat as you, or at least with their choice of using GTX. It works, but there are better choices. Nice cars though!

i hope the oil companies can hear our typing, and feel our buying power. they need to step up and make something for the older cars, especially air cooled.

Don't hold your breath. Even Mobil's attempt at reintroducing the 15w50 was a flop - why couldn't they just go back to the good old API SG or SH 15w50 from 10+ years ago? And Castrol's new Syntec 20w50, in an email from Castrol directly, says it's only slightly higher than SM levels but lower than even GTX. What is the point in calling it a classic car oil? It's just plain 'ol marketing BS. Same with Porsche's blanket recommendations and approved oils.

Off the forums, an acquantence of Bruce Anderson contacted me recently who wrote to Porsche, in Germany, in German, as he's originally from, and got a load of BS and fluff, dancing around the whole problem trying to make out it's a non-problem.

Don't expect an answer from Porsche or the big oil companies any time soon.

[htron435]

By the way, Brad Penn is a synthetic blend, not just dyno oil.

[cnavarro]

Yup, Brad Penn is 10% Group III.

[old man neri]

Charles.

I found a place near by that stocks Elf, swepco, and amsol. Perhaps a few others. Which one would you recommend, what grade, and should the grade change between winter and summer? Currently there is Mobile 1 in there.

Thanks!
-matt

[Brent Lineker]

I live in a somewhat isolated area needing to take a ferry to get anywhere and not having Brad Penn or Swepco available to me without large shipping costs I am leaning towards staying with Mobil-1 as it is readily available here.The blend I came up with is 7 quarts of 5w-50 Mobil 1 high performance version,3 quarts of Mobil-1 20W-50 V-Twin with a pint of Delco EOS.My rough numbers through Charles tests through Stavely should yield 1222 zinc and 1470 phosphorus.This sounds like a decent compromise.The 5w-50 is 7 bucks a quart but the V-Twin is 17 bucks a quart that is why I was leaning to making a blend.Any comments?

[WERK I]

After reading this thread............thanks to all the contributors, btw.
I'm using Castrol full Syn 20-50 with two bottles of Comp Cams(each bottle treats 6 qt). The overall first impression is I am amazed how easy the engine turns over to start after spending the night in chilly temps of 40-50 degrees Fahrenheit range. After the disaster I experienced, (see thread; Clogged Spray Bar autopsy ) this information could not have come at a better time. After about 500 miles of driving since the repair, the engine really sings.

[moneymanager]

Mobil 1 V Twin at $17 a quart? I think I've seen it for about $11 on the internet. autobarn?

[mgata]

Wal Mart has the Mobil 1V Twin for 8,42 USD/quart. I mean, who doesn't have a Wal Mart within reasonable dostance? I think Autozone has it for 9 something /quart.

[Wavey]

Brent, you can order M1 VITwin online. I just 2 cases (12 quarts) for $113.00 US, shipped.

http://www.avlube.com/index.html

[BlueSideUp]

Do you guys run a 20W-50 in the winter too? I am in Socal so our coldest "winter" temps might hit 35 degrees on the rare occasion but I'd say it's more like an average in the 50s. I currently have 15W40 in the car but I am considering switching it up to a 20W-50 during my fall oil change. I only have about 1500 miles on the last change but I did it in the spring.

I'll look around and see if I can find some M1 V-twin or some of the green oils. I'm very interested in reducing the smoke (higher flash points) and lowering consumption.

[old man neri]

Originally Posted by Wavey

Brent, you can order M1 VITwin online. I just 2 cases (12 quarts) for $113.00 US, shipped.

http://www.avlube.com/index.html

They ship UPS, major fees and brokerage charges to Canada.