Ultimate Motor Oil Thread or Why we hate CJ4/SM oils

[Bill in OKC]

I got curious about the aeroshell - used it in an RX7 - and found this:

http://www-static.shell.com/static/aviation/downloads/publications/aeroshellbook/aeroshellpeos.pdf


it says no zinc additives

[M.D. Holloway]

Fewer and fewer companies are using zinc additives as antiwear agents. Pretty soon they will be a thing of the past.

[68redlines73]

Ummmm....not.

[cnavarro]

Nope, don't use aviation oils for street use.

[saurkraut]

So Castrol GTX High Mileage is OK. Is Brad Penn 20W50 Racing a whole lot better?

I don't mind the expense, but its probably easier to pick up a quart of Castrol for make up oil than to buy 2 cases of Brad Penn and have a perptual partial case of it lying around.

[gtc]

I believe amaz0n sells brad penn by the quart, if you don't want to buy by the case.

[Flieger]

What's wrong with a partial case of Brad Penn? I have one. I can put other stuff on and in it in the space that oil is not occupying.

Brad Penn is much better than Castrol GTX High Mileage. It is worth it.

[oreke]

Originally Posted by nize

not sure where you are getting false information but the 944 does not have roller-tappets.

the 944 has flat tappets.

I read it in some Rennlist forum post. I stand corrected. Thanks.

[Navaros911]

Ordered me some Brad Penn Grade 1 20w50 and a few 10w30s.

This way I can mix a little in the winter.

I'll get back with the results after the oil change (next month).

[bkreigsr]

may well be an old wives tale or urban legend, but I thought that when you mixed weights, all the oil would become the weight of the lowest oil.
Bill K

[donstevens]

Originally Posted by bkreigsr

may well be an old wives tale or urban legend, but I thought that when you mixed weights, all the oil would become the weight of the lowest oil.
Bill K

I am pretty ceratin that this is not true. Having said that it is also correct that mixing equal parts 20W50 with 10W30 will not necessarily yeild a 15W40.

Navarros911 - how cold does it get in Bahrain in the winter? If it does not get below +25F or so, the 20W50 will flow reasonably well. Below 15F though, conventional 20W50 flows like molasses.

Don

[saurkraut]

Well, I bought two cases of Brad Penn 20W50. Let the perpetual case of oil begin!

[BMWDavid]

Originally Posted by Navaros911

Ordered me some Brad Penn Grade 1 20w50 and a few 10w30s.

This way I can mix a little in the winter.

I'll get back with the results after the oil change (next month).

I believe Brad Penn has a 15W-40 Grade 1 oil now. Seems this would be an ideal weight for year round use.

[lucittm]

Max,
Your assertion:
"Brad Penn is much better than Castrol GTX High Mileage. It is worth it." does nothing to advance the knowledge or value of this thread. For example, what does "much better" mean? This is part of the reason the thread is over 1400 posts long. People state their opinion as a factual statement or provide statements that are not backed up with documented facts or reliable specifications. If you had preceded your statement with "In my opinion..." and "I think" (it is worth it), then there would be no debate.

Now, if you were there when they pulled Brad Penn oil out of the ground, watched the distillation process (likely at some no-name cracking plant), were present in the lab when the additives were mixed, carefully supervised every step of the blending and packaging, AND did the same for Castrol GTX; then you would be in a position to make those assertions.

Don't get me wrong, everyone has an opinion. And one opinion is no more valuable than any other. It seems oil is more like religion because there is just as much mystery when it comes to things like, where did it come from, who said what, when did they say it, and can you prove it. The sales and marketing in the oil business is fierce. None of us should be lured by advertising slogans that promise "Less wear", "Higher Mileage", "Increased Intervals" (those are some that I remember off the top of my head). Do the research, and then let us know WHY you think Brad Penn is superior to Castrol GTX and WHAT makes this true.

One thing is certain, the price has no bearing on the performance of the product. You can argue that supply and demand affect the price and the demand is linked to instances of perceived or proven better performance, but the price can be offset by so many factors that are not available to the public, such as the CEO salary, advertising budget, and size of the competing product lines, etc.

Another confusing factor is that the lubrication issue is dynamic and changes over time with chemical technology, advances in metallurgy, and sadly, advertising spin. I am not arguing that we jump from one brand of oil to another nor do I say that staying loyal to one brand of oil is correct either. My dad used straight Pennzoil SAE 30 in his 356. This does not make it good for my car and neither does the fact that my neighbor now uses Quaker State 20W-50 in his car.

This is all very subjective. In the long run it matters little unless you can point me to dyno results that show 1 HP difference when simply changing brands of oil or an engine that was ruined simply by the brand of oil that was in the crankcase.

Just a few thoughts.

Mark

[Wil Ferch]

Ok...so after 1400 posts can we summarize?

low weight ( 10W-30) oils as they first went from SJ to SM lowered their ZDDP ant-wear additives to comply with long catalyst lif mandates..and to heck about long life to motors.

Then....20W-50 or any of the "diesel" oils ( 15W-40 Rotella, etc) were said not to require compliance to new laws even if SM rated.

Then it was said that "not necessarily" would the later SM diesel oils be high again in ZDDP...it's a voluntary matter from the oil manufacturer whether or not they comply with long catalyst life rules as it applies to their heavier, diesel oils.

Mobil 1 15W-50 went from SM low ZDDP ( early SM time frame) to higher ZDDP... later time frame.

My point?......

Is there some way we can make sense of all this by someone who really knows ....and at least post ( with a DATE stamp)...what the situation is today in some sort of cohesive summary ???? In addition, is it possible that alternative additives are now being added to supplement even low ZDDP oils to result in adequate wear protection? Do we know?

Frankly....trying to keep up with this...I lost you at the bakery.

[lucittm]

Wil,
Here is a recent table for the Mobil-1 series of oil products I got from another website. It seems pretty recent - 5/27/10. Maybe Brad Penn, Castrol, Quaker State, etc. have similar tables that we could review in order to select the best oil for long life in our engines:
http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Files/Mobil_1_Product_Guide.pdf)

Thanks,
Mark

[brads911sc]

I think that most 20w50 oils are deemed to be acceptable by Navarro and others who have tested it.

GT1, VR1, Mobil 1, Swepco, Redline, and a host of others all test fine on ZDDP and other factors. Even Castrol high mileage tested fine. There is more to oil than ZDDP. you have to look at the total additive package. Not all are equal even if they are fine on ZDDP. which is probably why Castrol is deemed to be a lessor product. Yet the 1400+ posts here gloss over the total package and focus only on ZDDP.

In the end, if you use one of the 20w50 oils that is known to be good (VR1, GT1, Swepco, Redline, Brad Penn, Mobil), change it at a low interval (3k miles).. you are going to be fine. Dont make this more complicated than it has to be...

I think there is alot of hype on this, but 1100 PPM is 1100 PPM... and Brad Penn or Valvoline VR1, or Kendall GT1, or any other brand doesnt own the rights to the proper amounts or formula of additives. They are also comingling and sharing base stocks in many instances.
There arent that many different base stocks out there. I live in Houston, where just about every major refinery company has a plant, and I can tell you first hand that they are not all that different, if at all... and many of the oils you hype about like Swepco, Redline are buying product from the big boys that they base their product on.

My wife works for a company that transports oils, incl heavy oils and base stocks, and refined gasoline, and you would be shocked to know that Exxon, Mobil, Chevron, Shell, Texaco, Valero are all coming from the same tanks. You will be shocked to know that many of these specialty oils are having base stocks delivered from the same truck and they are competing products. They toss in the additive as its being pumped into its final destination, not at the refinery. Oil additives are added by the bottler, not at the refinery. and multiple brands are bottled at the same place. The exxon product you buy is only different from the chevron product you buy if the peson adding the additive actually puts in a different additive. You Think Mobil 1 really has a different base stock than Kendall GT1. Dont bet on it. Much of the advertised differences is just hype. Gasoline goes to racks, where every major company pushes raw product into the same racks. example, Exxon has a big rack near my house. So if you buy exxon gas at a comapny store within 60 miles you are getting Exxon gas. but Valero, Shell, Texaco, Chevron, all the grocery stores have tankers rolling into that same exxon rack. so when you buy Chevron gas not located near a Chevron rack, you are likely getting exxon gas with the techron added at the time its delivered. the opposite would be true near a chrevron rack. some oil companies dont even maintain their own racks, so it truly is just mixed all together... it is no different with base stocks and heavy refined oils such as motor oil. You really think small companies like Redline are making their own base stock? not a chance. They are buying base stock from one of the big boys and adding their label and additive package... dont believe the hype...

So we all know what the acceptable oils are. so get one that is locally and readily available and call it a day... If you spend extra money to have oil shipped to you, when it is the same base stock, similar additives, bottled at the same plant you are wasting your time and money. If you can get VR1 at your local Autozone, there will be no advantage to you having GT1 shipped to you. If you have a local GT1 distributor then fine... but the differences betrween VR1 and GT1 arent going to be dissernable to you unless you are a chemist.

Charles Navvaro and Harry D has done an excellent job at presenting the summary on Page 1 and at the end of the day... most of the oils in 20w50 on page 1 can be readily bought. All we can really do is continue to test the top ten every once in awhile to be sure the additive package doesnt change..

my .02.

[Wil Ferch]

So Brad.... could you have simply said all 20W-50's are OK? Is that true?

Same with the truck-focused diesel oils ....like the various 15W-40? Are they OK?

Your own first sentence has the words " I think" embedded in it.......

No question.....there are a lot of $8-12/qt oils that so-call fill the bill like Redline, etc. I'm asking about what the state-of-the-situation is with other oils more commonly found and more reasonably priced. PLUS....the question unanswered if low ZDDP can be good if supplemented by other anti-wear additives. Do we have true reports on this. We don't know.

If some of you may recall....this started some time ago when Steve Weiner reported engine rebuilders and cam grinders saying they are all-of-a-sudden seeing a lot of wear problems....then we found out about 800 ppm ZDDP oils...the early SM issue. Have their own reports changed today?

See my point?

[brads911sc]

I am not a chemist or an expert. so Ill defer to the test results posted by Charles and others like him. I cant answer your question as to whether all 20w50's are ok. I am merely pointing out that there is very little differences between most of them in that they use the same base stocks, are delivered by the same cariers, and can be tested and come out with similar test results.

my wife's company delivers base stocks from a wholesaler, that buys it from connoco, bp, exxon... and sells it on the wholesale market. So one day Redline may be getting base stock made by Exxon and another day it may be made by Connoco. The wholesaler is buying based on daily price, not which refinery made the stock. We are talking fractions of pennies per gallon. The contract Redline has is with the delivery company who is buying from the best priced wholesaler. so even if the wholesaler used only exxon base stock, the delivery company may use 5 differnt wholesalers based on price... So not only is the wholesaler buying from the cheapest refinery, but the delivery company is buying from the cheapest wholesaler.

So to think that Redlines base stocks are different than anyone elses is absurd. Its the same with gasoline. Her company will deliver to a Chevron store and a Valero store and a Kroger Grocery store and all the gas is being bought from the same rack...

My point is just that the oil companies would have you believe that they are different but based simply on the distribution system, its impossible for them to really be different...

Of course there are exceptions to every rule. I am sure there is some small company out there that always buys from the same supplier, etc... but in general that is not how the petro market works.

The bottom line is that we know what 20w50 oils have tested good (page 1). We can re-test them on a particular interval to test the additive package. but in the end, they are all very similar and made from the same base stock so it really comes down to perference... not science.

Originally Posted by Wil Ferch

So Brad.... could you have simply said all 20W-50's are OK? Is that true?

Same with the truck-focused diesel oils ....like the various 15W-40? Are they OK?

Your own first sentence has the words " I think" embedded in it.......

No question.....there are a lot of $8-12/qt oils that so-call fill the bill like Redline, etc. I'm asking about what the state-of-the-situation is with other oils more commonly found and more reasonably priced. PLUS....the question unanswered if low ZDDP can be good if supplemented by other anti-wear additives. Do we have true reports on this. We don't know.

If some of you may recall....this started some time ago when Steve Weiner reported engine rebuilders and cam grinders saying they are all-of-a-sudden seeing a lot of wear problems....then we found out about 800 ppm ZDDP oils...the early SM issue. Have their own reports changed today?

See my point?

[brads911sc]

As for commonly found oils that are reasonably priced (GT1 - less than $5, VR1 - less than $5, Mobil 1, Rotella T - less than $5)... they all tested fine by Charles. They are all made from similar base stocks unless they use branded base stocks because of the volume.. so Im not sure why anyone would need to buy an specialty - 8-12/Qt oil. In the end there is little advantage to paying a premium for oils like Redline if they are just re-packaging and tweaking the additives of everyone elses product... I personally have been to Redline's site. Its right across the street from my wifes company. Its a tiny little building not a big complex with manufacturing capability... Ive seen auto repair facilities with larger buildings... i should post a pic.

Originally Posted by Wil Ferch

So Brad.... could you have simply said all 20W-50's are OK? Is that true?

Same with the truck-focused diesel oils ....like the various 15W-40? Are they OK?

Your own first sentence has the words " I think" embedded in it.......

No question.....there are a lot of $8-12/qt oils that so-call fill the bill like Redline, etc. I'm asking about what the state-of-the-situation is with other oils more commonly found and more reasonably priced. PLUS....the question unanswered if low ZDDP can be good if supplemented by other anti-wear additives. Do we have true reports on this. We don't know.

If some of you may recall....this started some time ago when Steve Weiner reported engine rebuilders and cam grinders saying they are all-of-a-sudden seeing a lot of wear problems....then we found out about 800 ppm ZDDP oils...the early SM issue. Have their own reports changed today?

See my point?