Ultimate Motor Oil Thread or Why we hate CJ4/SM oils

[Por_sha911]

Thanks for the reply but I'm confused. I found this on Wikipedia:
It was once generally assumed that the measure and the film strength of the lubricant were directly related. Today, the primary purpose of the test is to determine whether EP additives are present and functioning. A measure of 35 pounds-force (16 kilograms-force or 155 newtons) or more means that EP additives are present and working.
I found this on your website:
Timken Falex bearing tests tend to indicate increased load capacity and less wear scarring with oils with high levels of moly as documented here and may prolong the IMS bearing life. The link goes to your paper "Oils ain't oils". So the way I'm reading it, you use the same tester no? Please understand I'm not trying to corner you but know how to properly extrapolate what I've seen and read. Oh, and the rep was using the Timken/Falex.

[1990C4S]

Originally Posted by cnavarro

Any machine that an oil rep uses to prove their oil is better is just false advertising. You can Google this. One such machine is a Timkin/Falex Bearing Tester. How the operator uses the machine (progression of loading from low to high) can skew results, favoring oils with high levels of EP additives.

Originally Posted by Por_sha911

I found this on your website:

Timken Falex bearing tests tend to indicate increased load capacity and less wear scarring with oils with high levels of moly as documented here and may prolong the IMS bearing life. The link goes to your paper "Oils ain't oils". So the way I'm reading it, you use the same tester no? Please understand I'm not trying to corner you but know how to properly extrapolate what I've seen and read. Oh, and the rep was using the Timken/Falex.

I don't think he meant the test is totally invalid, only that it could be manipulated. That's how I read it.

[cnavarro]

1990C4S hit it on the nose, the results can be manipulated very easily.

Nope, I didn't write the Oils ain't Oils article. In fact, that magazine had to publish a retraction, because the Timken Falex test doesn't prove anything other than if EP additives are present.

And yes, EP additives as well as higher Zn and P levels definitely help IMS bearing wear, but only after the seal has been compromised, which would appear to happen very early in the life of the bearing.

I have a copy of it as it's interesting to read nonetheless and I wanted to document it for posterity reasons. It's a piece of oil history.

I don't use or own a Timken Falex tester.

[bsimonson]

Originally Posted by cnavarro

Nice balance of Zn/P to detergents, less Ca blended with Mg detergent, and a decent amount of anti-foaming agent (Si). Doesn't appear to have any friction modifiers either. Don't know what to say about the base stock itself though.

Charles, thank you for taking your time to comment on this. I found some more information about the oil, not sure if it gives any indication about the base stock though (I'm really new to all of this).

Density (@15 deg C): 885 g/ml
Flash point: 225 deg C (ASTM D92, COC)
Viscosity kinematic @40 deg C: 102 mm2/s
Viscosity kinematic @100 deg C: 14,5 mm2/s
Viscosityindex: 140

Cheers, Björn

[cnavarro]

It has a pretty good flash point. About the highest I have seen on a non-syn is 232 deg C flash point.

The viscosity information provided lets you plot out the rate of viscosity loss as temperature increases. The only other figure I look at is the HTHS@150C, which is another viscosity measurement for high temperature/high shear.

[Por_sha911]

Charles: Thanks for the continuing education. Since I found the Oils Ain't Oils link on your website I thought it was legit. That webpage of yours is where you discuss the Timkens Falex test. Is the info in the Oils Ain't article valid? Also, IIRC you've said it before but what do you use to test oil?

[cnavarro]

Hey, no problem. The oil page is sad need of being updated, so I apologize if anything on there is out of date, not to mention totally omitting the new API SN standard, which is sure to mess up even more cars. They are going to a new phosphorus retention ZDDP which means the oil must retain 80% of the starting level after their test. To oversimplify things, it can't get used up (meaning you have less protection).

The Oils Ain't article isn't completely devoid of purpose - it does show which oils have fast acting EP additives for sure!

To test oils, I put them through their paces in the real world and set up a basic time/mileage limit and do regular UOA's. It's been a while, but I used to do them in several cars at the same time and also test controls to ensure each set of UOAs were accurate. Since switching to Staveley, I haven't had to do that. The only thing they suck at is data entry. I constantly have to have them go back and re-do the details as to which oil and other handwritten in information has been provided on the UOA form.

[trond]

It's getting cooler, and we are currently at mid forties, soon we'll see 35F to 20F and less. It has been repeated in this thread that it is OK to run Brad penn 20W-50 down to 20F. I would have liked to do just that as I actually have secured a small stock of BP at a bargain price of only USD170/case ! However driving to work I have noticed the oil pressure is peaking at very low RPMs, meaning oil flow would be compromised at anything above 3000 rpm. So I have been trying to find an acceptable winter oil. Yesterday I located Fuchs Silikolene Pro S 10W-50 at USD 442/12 quarts. As a comparison Royal Purple may be had at USD426.-/case.

I have located a SJ rated 15W-40 mineral motorcycle oil at low price chain Biltema at 10/quart and I think I will run that through winter, then in the spring go back to BP

Oil market here is very limited and most dont care much as they only change 4liters every 50 000 km anyway.

[BMWDavid]

Brad Penn Grade 1 is also available in a 15W-40. This might be a way to go in the cooler temps.

David

[bsimonson]

Charles, I contacted the company making the oil. They did not have a specific value for the HTHS but he stated that it should be above 3.5 which is in line with the ACEA A2 specification it is certified as.

I'm not really driving the car very hard and never (for now at least) on track. Would it be unwise to choose this oil or does it seem to be good enough for my application?

Trond, I've tried to get some more information about various Biltema oils but they have yet to reply to my inquires. The oil I have described here (Turbo Super) is available from Agrol (Lantmännen) and they are very helpful and knowledgeable indeed. They also sell it in 20 liter cases so one should be able to get a fair price although I haven't checked it yet.

Cheers, Björn

[Wil Ferch]

If Brad Penn is available in 15W-40, with the same characteristics and makeup of 20W-50....my view iss that

1.) 15W vs 20W would not be a great improvement
2.) 15W-40 should be fine for normal running. When Porsche only recommended straight weight oils ( as late as 1977, IIRC)....they were suggesting straight 30 for summer use.

Straight 30....available today....should work as well for "general" all-around summer use today as it likely won't be ZDDP compromised due to its "Specialist" nature....no manufacturer would be recommending it today and would therefore not likely to be SM rated.

[trond]

Brad Penn is only awailable here through one mail order outlet that I have found, and then only in 20W-50. Swepco is na. The only oils with less than API SL rating appears to be motorcycle oils (very expensive at > 400-450 $ for 12 quarts, and obscure 'classic' oils as Dyno Cat Supreme Classic (anyone heard of that at all ?) which appears to have plenty of Zink and Phosporus.

20W-50 is fine for the occasional Saturday blast when there is time to properly warm up the engine, but not so good on 10 mile drives in the cold where oil pressure stays pegged at max at anything above 3000 rpm

[brads911sc]

BP is available at Amazon. Not sure if they ship to Norway.

[bsimonson]

I finally got a reply from Biltema. They sent me some details about two oils. None of them seemed to be a really good fit but I have replied in turn and asked for details for some of their other products.

I collected everything in a spreadsheet to make things a bit more manageable. Below is a link if you think it might be of any use to you. I've put in two Brad Penn oils for reference. Will update this as I collect more data.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/11359608/Oils.xls

Cheers, Björn

[333pg333]

Just a slight ot (however related). What is a safe temp for our oil to get on the track?
VR1 20w/50 or 25w/60.

I know this is somewhat a loaded question and depends on where you measure the temp from. Just curious to hear what you guys are seeing on the track? Oh this is for a modified 944 turbo with a 993 oil cooler.

[79 Euro]

BP is available at Zims Autotechnik 800.356.2964 and I believe that sell/ship around the world. Ask for Kirk or e-mail to kirk@***********

[Wil Ferch]

to 333pg333:

On the track.....I'd start worrying if the temp creeps toward or above 240 degF...maybe even 230 and above. Certainly at 250, I'd seriously consider shutting down and sitting that session out. Time is an element too. A brief "touch" at 240-250 wouldn't be so bad as a number of solid minutes at these temps.

[foxpaws]

Does anyone know much about BG's MOA? I have had a couple of 'old school' air cooled racing guys swear by the stuff....

[trond]

Yesterday I got 3 pails of Swepco 15W-40 and poured them in replacing the BP-20W-50. It appears oil pressure is more reasonable now, the 20W-50 was on the thick side now with the cool weather. I paid USD 330 for 3 gallons btw, but I will rather run on Soy oil then pay that much again !

Bjørn
the 15W-40 Biltema oil may be the 'best' (which one is that specifically, the SJ rated motorcycle oil ? ) but still may be as low as 1000 ppm zink, as compared w/BP 1500

I really hope to find a more reasonable alternative locally, and it would have been great if any of the Biltema oils came through. However Biltema don't make oil, they buy wholesale and bottle it. You have to expect the formulation to change whenever they change supplier

Lets continue this discussion via pm's. Availability issues as we are having are not of general interest

[333pg333]

Originally Posted by Wil Ferch

to 333pg333:

On the track.....I'd start worrying if the temp creeps toward or above 240 degF...maybe even 230 and above. Certainly at 250, I'd seriously consider shutting down and sitting that session out. Time is an element too. A brief "touch" at 240-250 wouldn't be so bad as a number of solid minutes at these temps.

Hmm...I'm seeing max of 114C which equates to 237F. This is not for prolonged times though. I wonder if all these different oils have a max 'working' temp?