Ultimate Motor Oil Thread or Why we hate CJ4/SM oils

[lindy 911]

You need to check out Champion Motor Oils on the web.

Lindy

[333pg333]

So to clarify, dino oils of a higher visc have or haven't been superceeded by some of these 'fully synthetic' oils of a lower weight?

My arguments have often been met with "Oh but you need a lower weight to flow cold start and better flow provides better cooling as well."
My contention has been that if the factory suggests or indicates a 20w/50 for temps down as low as -10c then unless you are living in somewhere that
gets lower than that, why not have the added protection of a heavier oil? People tend to only think of oil as a lubricant or something to reduce friction but we would suggest that when the going gets tough (traffic or track) when the oil will heat up and thin out, that it is the last line of defence stopping all these gyrating expensive metal parts from destroying one another. In effect the oil is a protective bearing. How is a lighter weight eg 0w/30 going to provide the same protection as a 20/w50? Answer, it doesn't. We use a 25w/60 down here for our track days. I often have that in the car anyway.

Another question. I live in a generally warm climate (Sydney, OZ) vs someone who lives in eg England. So naturally they would want to use a lower w oil in general. However if they don't go below -10c for a particular season and they go and do a trackday, isn't the oil going to be reaching the same heat (all else being equal)? So even though my outside ambient temp might be 85f and theirs 65f, the engine / oil temps will basically be the same?

[Flieger]

Shell makes the same point: their F1 oils do NOT protect as well as the road oils because that would mean more viscosity, more drag, less power, lost races. They reduce the friction down to the minimum for power (with nasty stuff like ZDDP ) but do not have the protective viscosity.

Motorsports/Performance - Automotive Engineering International Online

[333pg333]

I think most of us are probably running on a slightly less significant budget than F1 teams. lol

Longevity is our Mantra.

[donstevens]

Originally Posted by 333pg333

So to clarify, dino oils of a higher visc have or haven't been superceeded by some of these 'fully synthetic' oils of a lower weight?

My arguments have often been met with "Oh but you need a lower weight to flow cold start and better flow provides better cooling as well."

So even though my outside ambient temp might be 85f and theirs 65f, the engine / oil temps will basically be the same?

I wish I could answer your questions but I cannot. There are way too many variables.

The point of my crude experiment is to show that a synthetic 20W50 flows much much better than a dino 20W50 at cold tempeartures. So when it gets cold, go synthetic and you don't need to worry about changing to a lighter weight oil.

Relative to your second question about ambient temps. Most Porsches have thermostatically controlled oil coolers. Such that, a difference in ambient temp between 65F and 85F is negligible. The thermostat will keep the bulk of the oil at ideal temp (180-210F). When one has to worry is when the ambient temp goes above 85F and the oil cooler only has so much cooling capacity (with themrostat wide open). Once again, when this happens and oil temp rise above 250F, synthectic oils are superior.

The point, synthetics (regardless of weight) perform more consisitently over a much wider temperature range.

Don

[HarryD]

Originally Posted by Flieger

Shell makes the same point: their F1 oils do NOT protect as well as the road oils because that would mean more viscosity, more drag, less power, lost races. They reduce the friction down to the minimum for power (with nasty stuff like ZDDP ) but do not have the protective viscosity.

Motorsports/Performance - Automotive Engineering International Online

Also, F1 engines do not need to last 100,000+ miles while maintained by neglectful owners who change their oil every 25,000 or so miles.

[Flieger]

Yes, that was what I meant to say but failed to communicate properly. They knew the precise TBO for the engine and made the oil to provide only that much protection to eek out all the low-viscosity performance they could between those rebuilds.

[333pg333]

I have been using a local oil for the track. I'm not sure if it's quite right though. It's a bit hard to pull all the relevant info from their website but could someone have a quick look at this to see what they think.
25W-60 Street and Track Engine Oil - Nulon Products Australia

NAME CAS RN %
paraffinic distillate, heavy, solvent- dewaxed (severe) 64742-65-0. >60
residual oils, petroleum, solvent dewaxed 64742-62-7. 5-15
mineral oil Not avail. 1-9
zinc alkyldithiophosphate <1
molybdenum compounds <1

Nulon 25W-60 Street & Track Engine/Motor Oil is formulated with the needs of the enthusiast in mind. It is designed specifically to provide optimum film strength and protection for large 6 and 8 cylinder engines/motors operating under high stress conditions. Quality viscosity index improvers and 100% virgin base oil form the basis of this advanced engine/motor lubricant. It exhibits excellent high temperature, high shear stability. Performance additives ensure maximum oil film strength and sustained oil pressure under the severest of operating conditions.
Benefits and Features
Helps maintain oil pressure in large tolerance 6 and 8 cylinder engines/motors
Contains Nulon's "Advanced Additive Technology" AAT, which dramatically reduces friction and improves fuel efficiency
Nulon's AAT ensures maximum cold start protection
High thermal and oxidation stability reduces sludge and deposit formation
High shear polymer ensures viscosity control and oil film strength
Particularly suited to competition use

Typical Characteristics
SAE Viscosity Grade 25w-60
KV @ 100°C (cSt) 24.00
KV @ 40°C (cSt) 228.7
Viscosity Index, ASTM D 2270 131
Density @ 15°C Kg/l 0.8927
Sulfated Ash, wt%, ASTM D 874 0.88
Total Base #, mg KOH/g, ASTM D 2896 7.2
Pour Point, °C, ASTM D 97 -15
Flash Point, °C, ASTM D 92 22
Due to continued product research and development the information contained in this Product Bulletin is subject to change without notification.
Approvals and Specifications
American Petroleum Institute : API SL/CF
European : ACEA A2/B2
Society of Automotive Engineers : SAE 25W-60

[4sd911]

I'll be assembling my 2.7 motor in the next few months and need brake in oil. I know brad penn non detergent is popular. What about Napa non detergent 30w, it's SJ rated. Store Locator | NAPA Online

[HarryD]

From another post (Oil; A quickie,...:)) by Steve Weiner:

Originally Posted by Steve@Rennsport

Hi,

Assuming that Porsche owners wish to stay informed and educated about an important topic, I've clipped a press release from JGibbs Racing about some changes coming in Sept.

Its no cause for panic or concern for people already using a good product in their 911's, but may be something to consider for those who haven't.

------------------

In 2004, API SM/GF-4 licensed oils hit the marketplace, and about 12 months later, articles and technical bulletins began to appear warning consumers of the risks of using low Zinc/Phosphorus API SM/GF-4 rated oils in flat tappet engines.

Today, the word is out – motor oils have changed. In 2010, passenger car engine oils change again, and heavy duty diesel trucks get catalytic converters.

This time, consider yourself forewarned.

API SN – ILSAC GF-5 licensed oil will hit the shelves in October of 2010, and this new oil specification places greater emphasis on protecting catalytic converters than previous oil standards. While this is good news for emissions, improved catalytic converter life has proven to be detrimental to flat-tappet camshaft life.

Another change associated with API SN/ILSAC GF-5 oils will be greater fuel economy performance. This improvement in fuel economy will be achieved by increased use of polymers called Viscosity Modifiers. These polymers help a “thin” oil act “thicker” under low stress conditions. While the liberal use of polymers helps improve fuel economy in passenger car engines, race engines produce shear stresses that can “tear” these polymers. When these polymers are sheared, your oil losses viscosity, and that can lead to increased wear.

More than ever before, engine builders, racers and hot rodders need to be aware that API rated products are “compromised” due to Passenger Car OEM requirements for improved catalytic converter life, fuel economy, and engine cleanliness.

To achieve these goals, oil marketers must reduce the Phosphorus, Sulfur and Zinc levels in their oils (.08), and they must use more polymers and aggressive detergents. While these changes are good for modern low rpm, overhead cam engines, older push rod engines and high RPM race engines need lubricants with higher levels of Phosphorus, Sulfur and Zinc as well as lower levels of polymers and detergents.

You don’t need to worry. You just need to choose the correct type of oil for your application.
----------------------------------------

Just keep using a product containing 1100-1200ppi of Zinc & Phosphorus and you'll be just fine.

[rollandburn]

Can somebody verify for me 'which' Brad Penn 20W50 oil is being recommended? It seems there are two, one being for motorcycles. I was able to find a guy that's going to sell me a case of either for $62 Canadian.... a killer deal I don't think I was supposed to get. =]

BP 20W-50 High Performance Oil (Partial Synthetic)
Penn Grade 1 High Performance Oil

or....

BP 20W-50 Motorcycle Oil (V2 4-Stroke)
Penn Grade 1 High Performance Oil

TIA

[Flieger]

As long as it says "Racing" or "Off Road Use Only" I think they are both good. Without a photo, I think that I am using the top one. I know I do not have the Motorcycle oil.

[teenerted1]

both BP will be fine

[SAM DACOSTA]

Originally Posted by rollandburn

Can somebody verify for me 'which' Brad Penn 20W50 oil is being recommended? It seems there are two, one being for motorcycles. I was able to find a guy that's going to sell me a case of either for $62 Canadian.... a killer deal I don't think I was supposed to get. =]

BP 20W-50 High Performance Oil (Partial Synthetic)
Penn Grade 1 High Performance Oil

or....

BP 20W-50 Motorcycle Oil (V2 4-Stroke)
Penn Grade 1 High Performance Oil

TIA

The BP 20/50 High Performance Oil is what my Porsche Shop (local tuner) recommended and replaced my Mobil 1. I participated in a DE at Willow Springs Raceway this past Monday and the car showed a noticeable lower operating temperature during the entire day, as compared to an event at auto Club Speedway 2 weeks earlier.

[Forza]

Originally Posted by rollandburn

Can somebody verify for me 'which' Brad Penn 20W50 oil is being recommended?

+1 for Brad Penn 20W-50 High Performance Oil ... it's the one you want.

[Helios59]

All my leaks went away when I changed from Mobil 1 15-50 to Valvoline 20-50 dino. Oil pressure's a bit higher too - right where it should be.

Now it's on to BP 20-50. I'm due for another oil change in about 2K miles.

My car's an '86 with about 72K miles.

[Shaun @ Tru6]

Has anyone tried the new Kendall GT-1?

ConocoPhillips Lubricants: World-class products and services

From the web page:
• Exclusive Liquid Titanium™ additive technology for extra protection against engine wear
• Formulated for engines equipped with turbochargers or superchargers
• Excellent resistance to viscosity and thermal breakdown at high temperatures
• Protects against sludge and varnish formation
• Protects against rust and bearing corrosion
• Highly resistant to foaming
• High ZDDP content for additional wear protection for engines with flat-tappet camshafts (SAE 20W-50)
• Racetrack-proven performance

[HarryD]

Originally Posted by Shaun 84 Targa

Has anyone tried the new Kendall GT-1?

ConocoPhillips Lubricants: World-class products and services

From the web page:
• Exclusive Liquid Titanium™ additive technology for extra protection against engine wear
• Formulated for engines equipped with turbochargers or superchargers
• Excellent resistance to viscosity and thermal breakdown at high temperatures
• Protects against sludge and varnish formation
• Protects against rust and bearing corrosion
• Highly resistant to foaming
• High ZDDP content for additional wear protection for engines with flat-tappet camshafts (SAE 20W-50)
• Racetrack-proven performance

Peter Zimmerman is a huge proponent of Kendall products and even after selllinghis shop still has been following the history and stands by the product.

Looking at the tech sheets, it looks good.

[Jim Garfield]

It might be great stuff, but any time I hear phrases like "Liquid Titanium" my anti marketing hackles are raised. The onus is on them to convince me why I need to use their oil, and it better be more than the "Liquid Titanium" advantage.

[Jim Garfield]

Originally Posted by HarryD

Peter Zimmerman is a huge proponent of Kendall products

I'm not sure Conoco Phillips is the same as the old Kendall. BP is the only refinery that is using the old Kendall base stock afaik.