Ultimate Motor Oil Thread or Why we hate CJ4/SM oils

[RWebb]

well, technically...

many people listened-up to Jerry Woods and Bruce Anderson long before the internet was popular, but since it dates back to the 1960s, and IIRC the Swepco admonition appeared by Dean Jerry in the 1970s Pano's...

[Dave @ Red Line]

To clear up some confusion, Red Line Motor Oils have in the past and continue to contain substantial ZDDP levels, 1200 ppm phosphorous sufficient extreme pressure protection for flat tappet cams, followers and lifters, phosphorus along with sulphur providing the critical protection.

* API Phosphorous Levels:

SA-SE late 40’s thru mid 70’s 800ppm typical
SF-SG late 70’s thru Mid 80’s 1000 − 1100ppm typical
SH early 90’s 1200ppm limit, 800 − 1000ppm typical
SJ-SL late 90’s early 00’s 1000ppm limit, 800ppm typical 5&10W-30
SM-SN mid 00’s on 600 to 800ppm limit, 10W30 and lower viscosities
(typical levels for API submitted Spark ignition oils)

CJ-4 current diesel (Compression ignition) 1200 ppm limit


Regards, Dave
Red Line Oil

[Bill Verburg]

Originally Posted by Dave @ Red Line

To clear up some confusion, Red Line Motor Oils have in the past and continue to contain substantial ZDDP levels, 1200 ppm phosphorous sufficient extreme pressure protection for flat tappet cams, followers and lifters, phosphorus along with sulphur providing the critical protection.

* API Phosphorous Levels:

SA-SE late 40’s thru mid 70’s 800ppm typical
SF-SG late 70’s thru Mid 80’s 1000 − 1100ppm typical
SH early 90’s 1200ppm limit, 800 − 1000ppm typical
SJ-SL late 90’s early 00’s 1000ppm limit, 800ppm typical 5&10W-30
SM-SN mid 00’s on 600 to 800ppm limit, 10W30 and lower viscosities
(typical levels for API submitted Spark ignition oils)

CJ-4 current diesel (Compression ignition) 1200 ppm limit


Regards, Dave
Red Line Oil

Thanks for that info!
To amplify, what changed most recently is that some modern oils have had ZDDP(zinc & phosphorus) content reduced to extend the life of catalytic converters.

Although all modern oil saw some reduction not all saw the same amount of reduction, the oils to avoid are any of the oils which have been engineered to meet the ILSAC GF-4 standard, the containers w/ the starburst
this one(donut) is ok, at least for the 15w-50 wt



this one(starburst) is not, these are all going to be lighter wt oils


I'd use a non starburst, non ILSAC GF-4(now 5 is out) 15w-50 wt from a know source
Redline is good, as in M1 , of course the racing oils have more ZDDP but are only appropriate for non cat apps

[oliver88]

I've posted it many times but...I have had great results with Redline 10w40 in my street and race cars...verified by multiple UOA's. You can easily run that oil 15 hours in a well tuned engine. No affiliation, justba happy racer.

[nize]

here's some interesting info regarding blackstone lab results for brad penn oil. from;
Penn Grade 1 High Performance Oil

ZDDP LAB RESULTS
We have seen the question arise on a number of chat rooms and websites about the amount of Zinc and Phosphorus in our Penn Grade 1 High Performance Oils. The questions seem to have arose after a number of people individually sent samples of our products to Blackstone Lab(s) for analysis. The Blackstone report showed a lower Zinc and Phosphorus additive concentration level then our established in house specifications and laboratory results from our ISO 9001:2008 quality control lab proved.

In an effort to clarify any misconception about our product we did our own testing and sent three virgin oil samples (each from the same identical batch) to both Blackstone Lab and Southwest Research Lab for testing. All three Southwest sample results were completely in line with our internal specifications/analysis. The Blackstone zinc and phosphorus results in all three analysis were lower than our internal specifications/analysis and Southwest Research’s lab results. The results for both the Blackstone and Southwest Research analysis are listed below:

Brad Penn Product........Blackstone...............Southwest Research
Penn Grade 1...............zinc 1,214 ppm.........zinc 1,540 ppm
20W-50 #7119.............phos 944 ppm...........phos 1,319 ppm
Penn Grade 1...............zinc 1,424 ppm.........zinc 1,565 ppm
10W-30 #7150.............phos 1,139 ppm........phos 1,332 ppm
Brad Penn PCMO...........zinc 689 ppm............zinc 1,051 ppm
20W-50 SJ #7123*.......phos 522 ppm...........phos 901 ppm

*In some cases we feel our PCMO SAE 20W-50 was sent in for analysis (and not the High Performance Oil SAE 20W-50) which does contain lower Zinc and Phosphorous additive concentration levels.

The difference in results between Blackstone and SRI can be explained by a difference in methodology in analyzing the samples and not differences in the formulation. Blackstone employed measurement techniques more generally employed in analyzing used oils, while SRI employed methods more usually utilized for new multigrade engine oils. The samples provided to both labs were new oils. New oils that have not been subjected to shear often require higher dilution rates in the elemental analysis measured by ICP (Inductively Coupled Plasma) as indicated in method ASTM D5185.

also from;
http://www.blackstone-labs.com/faq.php

On my virgin oil sample, the additives seem low. What's up?

After reviewing the results from some virgin samples that didn't look like they should, we realized we were using a measurement technique more generally employed in analyzing used oils, whereas we should have been using a method for new multigrade engine oils. New oils that have not been subjected to shear often require higher dilution rates in the elemental analysis measured by ICP (Inductively Coupled Plasma). This problem did not affect all virgin samples; the samples that were affected were those that used a higher VI (viscosity index) improver, such as Brad Penn's High Performance oil. We've corrected the issue now so that virgin samples are indeed reading as they should. If you are concerned about the readings for your virgin oil sample, give us a call.

[brads911sc]

Or you could just use Valvoline VR1 Racing, Kendall GT1 Racing available at your local FLAPS.

Originally Posted by nize

here's some interesting info regarding blackstone lab results for brad penn oil. from;
Penn Grade 1 High Performance Oil

[nize]

Originally Posted by brads911sc

Or you could just use Valvoline VR1 Racing or Kendall GT1 Racing available at your local FLAPS.

Zddp is very low in the Kendall GT1 oil. They have been sold out to diffrent foundry twice since they was originally from Kendall Street Bradford Penn. Brad Penn is now the original old Kendall oil foundry.

[brads911sc]

You are not correct. kendall GT1 has been tested by the experts numerous times and is listed as good on this very thread. The sellout was ages ago. Here is their latest 20w50 specs.

Phosphorus, wt % 0.108
Titanium, wt % 0.010
Zinc, wt % 0.119

Published 11/09.

Originally Posted by nize

Zddp is very low in the Kendall GT1 oil. They have been sold out to diffrent foundry twice since they was originally from Kendall Street Bradford Penn. Brad Penn is now the original old Kendall oil foundry.

[teenerted1]

Originally Posted by brads911sc

Or you could just use Valvoline VR1 Racing, Kendall GT1 Racing available at your local FLAPS.

why would peter do that when he gets BP by the Pallet

[brads911sc]

I dont really care what anyone uses. Its a personal decision... I was just pointing out that people have other more readily available options where these questions are not swirling about. I have nothing against BP... I dont know Peter. Sorry.

Originally Posted by teenerted1

why would peter do that when he gets BP by the Pallet

[nize]

i'm up for whatever is the best value. the way bp's prices have been going up lately it might make sense to switch to vr1/gt1 for economic reasons.

[911pcars]

Attempting a BP group buy for owners in So. Cal:

Brad Penn group buy in So. Cal

Sherwood

[winders]

I prefer Red Line....easier to get....better base stock....fully synthetic...proper levels of ZDDP.

Scott

[nize]

and how much is red line per quart?

[brads911sc]

I hear you. Ive used all three. I have a case of GT1 and 2 cases of VR1 and 3 cases of BP in the garage now. I try to buy whats on sale when I can as long as its good oil... FWIW, the VR1 has slightly higher ZDDP than GT1 but not by much... about 100 pppm. Luckily I have all 3 available within 10 minutes from my house... at the sale price of 2.50 a qt... Id stock up now on the VR1. The VR1 is really in line with the BP on ZDDP... At regular price its really not a price issue but a preference issue. There is a site (buyracingparts.com) that is charging $45 a case for BP right now as well. Shipping is pricey. Amazon continues to sell BP at $53 a case and the shipping is a flat fee. So if you buy one case the shipping is 6.99 if you buy 3 cases the shipping is 7.99... its based on dollar amount not actual shipping cost. I think people have to decide for themselves.

Originally Posted by nize

i'm up for whatever is the best value. the way bp's prices have been going up lately it might make sense to switch to vr1/gt1 for economic reasons.

[winders]

Originally Posted by nize

and how much is red line per quart?

Not enough more than Brad Penn to make Brad Penn worth the hassle or to get the lower quality base.

Scott

[brads911sc]

Its 10.49/Qt on red lines website + shipping.

Originally Posted by winders

Not enough more than Brad Penn to make Brad Penn worth the hassle or to get the lower quality base.

Scott

[winders]

Originally Posted by brads911sc

....but to say BP has lower quality base stocks just shows how little you know about the subject...

Brad Penn Penn Grade 1 is blended with a hydrocracked Group III base stock which is just modified plain old oil. Maybe you think that is equal to the fully synthetic Group V Esther base stock Red Line uses, but that just isn't the case.

While Brad Penn can be labeled a "Partial Synthetic" here in the USA, it can't be anywhere else in the world.

So please educate yourself before you tell others how little they know.

Scott

[winders]

By the way, brads911sc, I said I prefer Red Line and the cost difference between Red Line and Brad Penn is not enough to make me prefer Brad Penn. Notice the "I" and the "me". I didn't say you or anyone else needed to prefer Red Line over Brad Penn. I didn't say Brad Penn was no good.

You also have no idea how much I pay for Red Line nor do you know what I consider the value difference to be.

Scott

[winders]

Originally Posted by brads911sc

....but to say BP has lower quality base stocks just shows how little you know about the subject...

Since Brad Penn Penn Grade 1 is blended with a hydrocracked Group III base stock which is just modified plain old oil, I would prefer to use Amsoil (PAO Group IV) or a PAO Group IV Mobil 1 product. Both of which use a superior base stock to Brad Penn.

Scott