Ultimate Motor Oil Thread or Why we hate CJ4/SM oils

[j911brick]

For what its worth I have been using Swepco 306 since 1996. I use it in everything from lawnmowers to race engines and motorcycles. I have well over 2 million miles on one truck, still with the original turbo charger and injection pump. I'm the one who turned Pelican onto Swepco about 10 years ago. Steve W. and I have had many long discussions about this over the years. What originally sold me was a track day I did (back in '95) where my oil temp peaked over 300 deg. on fresh Valvoline Syn. racing oil. (it was so hot you could actually feels the motor losing power like it was seizing). Since switching to 306 temps stay in the 180-190 range. I'm not saying its better than anything else out there, but it sure has my respect considering all I have put it through.

I would also like to point out once again: Oil is more than just a list of specifications. Specifications can tell you some things, but they won't tell you how the oil actually works in real world applications. You have to consider the ENTIRE additive package that is the final product. Just because it has ZDDP, or any other additive, does not mean all your problems are solved. Oil companies spend allot of money of marketing and hype; seemingly more than they do on research. Like many of you, I used to use GTX, until the late 80''s when I started seeing camshaft problems on motorcycles. Now I won't put the stuff in my lawn mower.

[Wil Ferch]

j911brick....I have no doubt you influenced Pelicanheads to go Swepco....but do understand that many of us listened-up to Jerry Woods and Bruce Anderson long before the internet ( ! )....and learned of Swepco thru their endorsements much earlier. I also agree on Castrol and avoid it.

[AlfonsoR]

Originally Posted by j911brick

What originally sold me was a track day I did (back in '95) where my oil temp peaked over 300 deg. on fresh Valvoline Syn. racing oil. (it was so hot you could actually feels the motor losing power like it was seizing). Since switching to 306 temps stay in the 180-190 range.

Wow, 300 deg F to 190 deg F just with a change of oil?? I have to believe that not all the information is being presented here, correct? Maybe the additive package was depleted in the Valvoline? Did you do an oil analysis of the valvoline?

[brads911sc]

+1

Sounds like a reach to me. Must not be on the same track in the same ambients. 15-20 degrees.. maybe. 110 degrees.... prove it...

The crazy thing is that most of these oils use the same base stock... My wife is a manager at a petro carrier here in the oil capital... she will send a truck from redline to conocco to mobil... they are all gettting the same base stock. The other thing she witnesses is that which base stock mobil or redline etc gets today is often based on the price... sold based on a fraction of a penny... this base stock is bought from distributors that all get their stock from very few companies (maybe 6-8 total)... and you think your $8 a qt oil is really different than the big boys? the additives are tweaked of course... but the base stocks are often the same. Same is true for gasoline. If the exxon rack is cheaper by .01% of a penny today.. guess what.. everyone.. chevron, exxon, mobil, texaco, shell.. is getting exxon. tomorrow.. everyone might get chevron gas. Its also geographic. So if there is an Exxon rack in North Houston, every station within 20 miles of that rack is getting gas from Exxon. They arent driving Chevron gas from the other side of town. They add less than a quart of techron in a tank with 5000 gallons. Are you kidding me? About 2x a month they suspend or fire a driver for forgetting to add the additive. So much for driving your engine clean... The only exception are a couple chains that own all their stores, racks, refineries, etc. sunoco is an example of one of those. If you buy gas at a sunoco.. you are probably getting real sunoco gas...

Originally Posted by AlfonsoR

Wow, 300 deg F to 190 deg F just with a change of oil?? I have to believe that not all the information is being presented here, correct? Maybe the additive package was depleted in the Valvoline? Did you do an oil analysis of the valvoline?

[DRACO A5OG]

From my observations:

I switched to Valvoline VR1 (Dino) 20w50 from Brad Penn Partial Synthetic (printed on label) 20w50 due to leaks.

Valvoline did run hotter for me, in fact gets up to temps much faster as well.

With BP, in normal traffic conditions my needle on the guage would reach normal temps and pretty much stay there, just above the 1st mark (8:30) .

With VR1 it would now go up to middle of the guage (9:00) on the same route and time.

I am also using a higher filtering oil filter to catch more microns of debris, not sure if that is a factor.

[brads911sc]

Must be alot of catastrophic engine failures with Valvoline Syn if it causes temps to go up 110 degrees. thats 50%+ over normal.

I use Valvoline in all my cars... Sorry I dont buy your story...

Originally Posted by j911brick

For what its worth I have been using Swepco 306 since 1996. I use it in everything from lawnmowers to race engines and motorcycles. I have well over 2 million miles on one truck, still with the original turbo charger and injection pump. I'm the one who turned Pelican onto Swepco about 10 years ago. Steve W. and I have had many long discussions about this over the years. What originally sold me was a track day I did (back in '95) where my oil temp peaked over 300 deg. on fresh Valvoline Syn. racing oil. (it was so hot you could actually feels the motor losing power like it was seizing). Since switching to 306 temps stay in the 180-190 range. I'm not saying its better than anything else out there, but it sure has my respect considering all I have put it through.

I would also like to point out once again: Oil is more than just a list of specifications. Specifications can tell you some things, but they won't tell you how the oil actually works in real world applications. You have to consider the ENTIRE additive package that is the final product. Just because it has ZDDP, or any other additive, does not mean all your problems are solved. Oil companies spend allot of money of marketing and hype; seemingly more than they do on research. Like many of you, I used to use GTX, until the late 80''s when I started seeing camshaft problems on motorcycles. Now I won't put the stuff in my lawn mower.

[brads911sc]

Small increase can be caused by a host of factors. Ambient Temps, Speed at which you are driving. Filter used, miles on oil, Gasoline you are using, humidity level. Altitude.

But 110 degrees? its laughable. thats a 50%+ increase.

Originally Posted by DRACO A5OG

From my observations:

I switched to Valvoline VR1 (Dino) 20w50 from Brad Penn Partial Synthetic (printed on label) 20w50 due to leaks.

Valvoline did run hotter for me, in fact gets up to temps much faster as well.

With BP, in normal traffic conditions my needle on the guage would reach normal temps and pretty much stay there, just above the 1st mark (8:30) .

With VR1 it would now go up to middle of the guage (9:00) on the same route and time.

I am also using a higher filtering oil filter to catch more microns of debris, not sure if that is a factor.

[DRACO A5OG]

Originally Posted by brads911sc

Small increase can be caused by a host of factors. Ambient Temps, Speed at which you are driving. Filter used, miles on oil, Gasoline you are using, humidity level. Altitude.

But 110 degrees? its laughable. thats a 50%+ increase.

Beside the oil being changed twice to dump the BP, it was only the filter that was changed. I am installing the OEM Mahl filter to see if that effects the temps.

I will be dissecting the Higher Filtering Filter to see if it really did catch more debris than the Mahl.

[brads911sc]

Will be interesting. 50% is a huge difference. if it were true Id think that Valvoline would be getting alot of complaints... and many of us use VR1 and while we may have some increase (10-15%) based on the oil, a 50% increase would be noted here on the board if it were an oil characteristic... My temps are unchanged when I switch between VR1 and GT1.

Originally Posted by DRACO A5OG

Beside the oil being changed twice to dump the BP, it was only the filter that was changed. I am installing the OEM Mahl filter to see if that effects the temps.

I will be dissecting the Higher Filtering Filter to see if it really did catch more debris than the Mahl.

[Flieger]

I thought Brad Penn had its own source of superior Pennsylvania sweet crude, hence the green color. It sure is better base stock than Castrol GTX.

[brads911sc]

I dont doubt that Brad Penn has its own base stock as its based in PA. I was referring to the Houston / TX based oil companies like Exxon-Mobil, Conocco Philips, Redline, Shell, Chevron, Valvoline, etc... Some of which are good and some not... The point really is that while some of the special oils like Brad Penn are the exception, the main difference in many of these oils is the additive package.. and many competing brands are working from the base stocks all made in the same refinery and therefore arguing that somehow Valvoline would cause a 110 jump in temp goes against everything we know about how its produced, by whom, how its sold, transported, distributed, etc. Example, the conocco philips base stock used in Kendall Synthetics, is the same base stock used in Mobil 1 Syn oils.. and its refined by neither Exxon-Mobil or Conocco Phillips. Ill try to post the link. Both are actually refined by a big refining company that no one would even recognize. It was quite amazing. They had several (6-8) brands that all compete and they made the base stocks for all of them. Im sure not all base stocks are equal. Some are probably terrible. Castrol being a good example. But I am also sure that when one bashes a brand like Valvoline (when its tests good and many use it with great success), and praises a small company like Swepco... (a small company that could NOT possibly produce base stocks) there is a good chance that both oils use the same base stocks... so without facts we should just rely on the testing and not make outlandish statements. Just my .02.

Originally Posted by Flieger

I thought Brad Penn had its own source of superior Pennsylvania sweet crude, hence the green color. It sure is better base stock than Castrol GTX.

[HarryD]

Originally Posted by brads911sc

+1

Sounds like a reach to me. Must not be on the same track in the same ambients. 15-20 degrees.. maybe. 110 degrees.... prove it...

The crazy thing is that most of these oils use the same base stock... My wife is a manager at a petro carrier here in the oil capital... she will send a truck from redline to conocco to mobil... they are all gettting the same base stock. The other thing she witnesses is that which base stock mobil or redline etc gets today is often based on the price... sold based on a fraction of a penny... this base stock is bought from distributors that all get their stock from very few companies (maybe 6-8 total)... and you think your $8 a qt oil is really different than the big boys? the additives are tweaked of course... but the base stocks are often the same. Same is true for gasoline. If the exxon rack is cheaper by .01% of a penny today.. guess what.. everyone.. chevron, exxon, mobil, texaco, shell.. is getting exxon. tomorrow.. everyone might get chevron gas. Its also geographic. So if there is an Exxon rack in North Houston, every station within 20 miles of that rack is getting gas from Exxon. They arent driving Chevron gas from the other side of town. They add less than a quart of techron in a tank with 5000 gallons. Are you kidding me? About 2x a month they suspend or fire a driver for forgetting to add the additive. So much for driving your engine clean... The only exception are a couple chains that own all their stores, racks, refineries, etc. sunoco is an example of one of those. If you buy gas at a sunoco.. you are probably getting real sunoco gas...

Are you sure you are not confusing Gasoline with Lubricationg Oil distribution?

It is well known at for a given area, it is not unusual for all gas stations to get the same base stock for gasoline. What differentiates them is the addtives and the label on the the pump.

On the other hand, lube oils typically come from refineries specifically deticated to Lube Oil manufacure. One refinery may supply a variety of end use suppliers who each put their own additive package. In fact for a long time, I think Exxon (if not them, then some other large corp) also make K-Mart brand oil. They were produced in the same line with the same additives. Only the label was different. Those in the know, would by K-mart oil knowing they got Exxon. But, on the same line they also packaged other private brands which only got 3 or 4 of the 5 additives that make the Exxon label.

[brads911sc]

Ill find and post the link show that several well known competing oils base stocks are all are refined by the same refinery. Im not saying they are bottled in the same place.. or that they are equal.. or that the additives are the same. Obviously they are not. My only point is that there are not that many refineries on the tx coast making lubricants. This is a very small market in the total oil market... to make claims that a well known and well regarded oil caused 110 degree jumps in temp... should require some proof and runs counter to the refining market.

I just know what I was told. Her company transports all types of petro products. Lubricants, gasoline, etc. Of course I have no proof.. except the link i found because I started digging... Think it was Calumet or Motiva... Ill find it...

If you look at Calumets 2010 annual report page 14... you will see all the major oil company logo's (shell, chevron, exxonmobil, conocco-phillips, etc)... this wasnt where I saw the discussion... Ill keep digging... the one i read clearly stated that the motor oils base stocks were shared...

http://phx.corporate-ir.net/External.File?item=UGFyZW50SUQ9MzgzODA4fENoaWxkSUQ 9Mzg1MTI5fFR5cGU9MQ==&t=1

but the truth is that ExxonMobil, Calumet and Motiva control more than half the group 2 base stocks market in the US... Motiva claims to control almost 30% by themselves on their annual reports...

Here is an 2008 article discussing how the market works... the four base stock business models are outlined nicely.

http://www.klinegroup.com/news/articles/Marketing_Matters_May_June08.pdf

Originally Posted by HarryD

Are you sure you are not confusing Gasoline with Lubricationg Oil distribution?

It is well known at for a given area, it is not unusual for all gas stations to get the same base stock for gasoline. What differentiates them is the addtives and the label on the the pump.

On the other hand, lube oils typically come from refineries specifically deticated to Lube Oil manufacure. One refinery may supply a variety of end use suppliers who each put their own additive package. In fact for a long time, I think Exxon (if not them, then some other large corp) also make K-Mart brand oil. They were produced in the same line with the same additives. Only the label was different. Those in the know, would by K-mart oil knowing they got Exxon. But, on the same line they also packaged other private brands which only got 3 or 4 of the 5 additives that make the Exxon label.

[AlfonsoR]

^^^ I believe, though I can not verify, what Brad is saying to probably be true. I have heard, for example, that Amsoil buys their stock from Exxon. This is from a person that works for the Exxon/mobil distributor.

Back to the VR1. One possible explanation is water in the oil. At one company I used to work, we changed the oil in a gear box. Within less than 30 days, an oil sample was taken. It had water in the oil. We then tested the oil in the barrel from which the oil came, it too had water. In this particular case, the barrel had been stored outside, in the weather.

I used to think that type of incident was uncommon, but in the last few years I have moved around to different work places and have found this is is very common.

OK, another possibility is oil temp gage malfunctioning intermitently??

But, 100 deg F difference between one oil and another means something is wrong somewhere, no doubt about it.

[HarryD]

Originally Posted by brads911sc

Ill find and post the link show that several well known competing oils base stocks are all are refined by the same refinery. Im not saying they are bottled in the same place.. or that they are equal.. or that the additives are the same. Obviously they are not. My only point is that there are not that many refineries on the tx coast making lubricants. This is a very small market in the total oil market... to make claims that a well known and well regarded oil caused 110 degree jumps in temp... should require some proof and runs counter to the refining market.

I just know what I was told. Her company transports all types of petro products. Lubricants, gasoline, etc. Of course I have no proof.. except the link i found because I started digging... Think it was Calumet or Motiva... Ill find it...

If you look at Calumets 2010 annual report page 14... you will see all the major oil company logo's (shell, chevron, exxonmobil, conocco-phillips, etc)... this wasnt where I saw the discussion... Ill keep digging... the one i read clearly stated that the motor oils base stocks were shared...

http://phx.corporate-ir.net/External.File?item=UGFyZW50SUQ9MzgzODA4fENoaWxkSUQ 9Mzg1MTI5fFR5cGU9MQ==&t=1

but the truth is that ExxonMobil, Calumet and Motiva control more than half the group 2 base stocks market in the US... Motiva claims to control almost 30% by themselves on their annual reports...

Here is an 2008 article discussing how the market works... the four base stock business models are outlined nicely.

http://www.klinegroup.com/news/articles/Marketing_Matters_May_June08.pdf

Interesting reading. The models they present show both the Brad Penn Model ("Own Supply" - own the process wells to customer) as well as those that buy some or all of their base material from a third party (who may also market the base product under their own label(s).

Thanks for the info!

[j911brick]

Originally Posted by AlfonsoR

Wow, 300 deg F to 190 deg F just with a change of oil?? I have to believe that not all the information is being presented here, correct? Maybe the additive package was depleted in the Valvoline? Did you do an oil analysis of the valvoline?

The Valvoline was put in the day before the track event. I did put in an additional oil cooler about that time, but I don't recall that being the deciding factor. I also seen similar improvement in temps when I started using it in my truck (previously used Mystic JT-8). I admit these are two extreme examples and other experiments I have tried did not see this kind of improvement.

[teenerted1]

Originally Posted by j911brick

the valvoline was put in the day before the track event. i did put in an additional oil cooler about that time, but i don't recall that being the deciding factor. I also seen similar improvement in temps when i started using it in my truck (previously used mystic jt-8). I admit these are two extreme examples and other experiments i have tried did not see this kind of improvement.

bingo

[brads911sc]

Too many factors from ambients, hardware changes, driving style, humidity, etc to blame 110 degrees on the Valvoline. If it was the oil you would see similar results over and over again in similar porsche's on the similar track, etc.

[j911brick]

Originally Posted by teenerted1

bingo

Don't get too excited. like I said I don't think it was the deciding factor, and the similar results I seen in my truck had no changes. The thing with the valvoine is that even though I paid for Synthetic, the guys at the oil change place were a bunch of clowns and may have put in the wrong oil. I think the dramatic change I seen was more of the difference between good oil and crap oil. Like I said, I have also tested a couple of other cars with little of no difference seen in temps. I have nothing to sell.

[j911brick]

Originally Posted by Wil Ferch

j911brick....I have no doubt you influenced Pelicanheads to go Swepco....but do understand that many of us listened-up to Jerry Woods and Bruce Anderson long before the internet ( ! )....and learned of Swepco thru their endorsements much earlier. I also agree on Castrol and avoid it.

I remember Anderson recommending 201 for the transmission, but I don't recall seeing any recommendations for 306. I could be wrong. I think it was a call to Jason@Paragonproducts that led me to a call to Swepco that got me started on 306. I also use their ATF 714 in my dually trans; almost 200K miles and it actaully shifts better now than when I bought it.