Ultimate Motor Oil Thread or Why we hate CJ4/SM oils

[RWebb]

Originally Posted by Black 993

What does everyone think of the new Castrol Syntec 5W-50? I can't find the five-gallon M1 jugs anymore, but this stuff seems to be readily available. I can't find ZDDP numbers, though. Recommended for a 993?

Castrol USA - Grades

"SAE 5W–50 provides the widest range of protection available. SAE 5W-50 delivers exceptional cold temperature pumpability for rapid oil circulation at start-up and provides a thick oil film for ultimate wear protection. Exceeds all car and light truck manufacturer’s warranty requirements for the protection of gasoline, diesel and turbocharged engines where API SM, SL, SJ, SH, CF or CD is recommended. Exceeds European ACEA: A3, B3; Ford WSS-M2C931-B and the engine protection requirements of ILSAC GF-4 for API Certified Gasoline Engine Oils."

sorry to belabor this point for everyone one else, but I did not see that phrase in your above post, which is what I responded to

[clesch]

Since I can’t source Brad Penn Oil here in Europe without paying absurd amounts for shipping, I’ve been looking for alternatives with a proven high amount of ZDDP.

The closest thing I’ve found so far is Castrol Classic XL 20W-50, which appears to be what Porsche in Stuttgart uses for their completed restorations.

Castrol Classic XL 20W-50 is a conventional multigrade engine oil of good all round performance, formulated with high quality mineral oils plus selected additives, ideally suited to older technology and classic car engines.

Castrol Classic XL 20W-50 is designed to meet the motor manufacturers' requirements for passenger cars and motorcycles running under normal service conditions, but excluding those equipped with catalytic converters.

The prime recommendation is for all pre-1980 petrol engined vehicles requiring a high quality product but with an older technology additive formulation.

API Service SE
Zinc content greater 0.08% (800ppm)

all according to the Datasheet.

It may not be ideal but it is better than most of the oils I can get around here.

Does somebody know where I can get a sample of this oil analyzed in Europe? I’ve already bought a few cans of it and plan to use it for my next oil change, it would be nice to know what the actual ZDDP percentage is.

[richardlw]

800 ppm (or SM) is the lowest protection you can have. Stay away from anything with SM on the left of the slash, look for a CI-4 or CJ-4 to the left of the slash, stay away from the starburst oils (limited to 800 ppm).

Read my oil paper.

Mobil spends millions of dollars getting to be the factory fill and getting their names on car and equipment brands. They make some good products, but I think too much marketing hype. My son's twin turbo Audi S4 shouldn't have needed two new turbos at 90,000 miles with Mobil 1 its entire life, changed at the dealer at required intervals.

[trentwat]

Originally Posted by Bill Verburg

latest is the ZDDP controversy. For long emissions systems life ZDDP levels have been reduced and for better economy lighter wt oils are used. ZDDP is an anti wear agent indicated for use where there are high loads, as in flat tappet cams.

Owners of older cars should avoid oil w/ the starburst seal on it as this is the sign of low ZDDP, low vis. oil

If you can get it there are several good 20w-50 or 15w-50 oils w/o the starburst seal that are available, my favorites are M! 15w-50 and Brad Penn 20w-50

I drank the Kool-aid...and already have Bradd Penn in the car. Considering how much of a boutique-oil (if that's possible) BP is, I simply want to ensure it is the right choice. The fact that the recent 911 raffle car was filled with a Castrol product is curious.

Normally, I would look to the manufacturer for this information -not an independent. The obvious challenge to this logic is that an auto maufacturer's test parameters could have changed since my car was produced. And, they really don't have the funding to test all the various oils out there.

Has anyone sought out an official clarification from Porsche -or better yet Porsche Classic?

[Canuck_Targa]

I suggest reading the above linked article "Selection of the Right Motor oil for the Corvair".
This is a very informative article that is dealing directly with the reduction in Zddp in the newer oil. This articele will give you enough information to make your own decision on what oil is right for you and your driving climate and conditions. It is based on facts and studies not opinions and opinions of others. Not saying there isnt alot of factual information in the previous 83 pages of this thread, but there is definately alot of opinion based on what, I am not sure.

I will base my decision on what my driving type and climate is, a race motor in the southern U.S should not be using the same oil as a car that gets out once a week for a sunday drive in a far clloer climate.

Read the article and you will be able to see what you should be looking for in an oil.

[pwd72s]

I did NOT read all the pages here...just in case this hasn't been mentioned. Valvoline now sells a racing synthetic with the good stuff. Dunno if it comes in P-car weights, tho.

Valvoline.com > Products > Motor Oil > Racing Motor Oil > Valvoline® Racing Synthetic (VR1) Motor Oil

[nize]

Originally Posted by pwd72s

I did NOT read all the pages here...just in case this hasn't been mentioned. Valvoline now sells a racing synthetic with the good stuff. Dunno if it comes in P-car weights, tho.

Valvoline.com > Products > Motor Oil > Racing Motor Oil > Valvoline® Racing Synthetic (VR1) Motor Oil

from the valvoline link which refers to: Download Product Info PDF;
http://www.valvoline.com/pdf/VR-1_Synthetic_Racing_Motor_Oil.pdf

returns;
The requested URL /pdf/VR-1_Synthetic_Racing_Motor_Oil.pdf was not found on this server.

searching amazon for valvoline product/part number: 679082

returns;
nothing

google for product/part number: 679082

returns;
Valvoline 679082 VR1 Synthetic Racing Formula 20w-50 - 1 Quart (Pack of 6) is currently unavailable

what is the cost of Valvoline 679082 VR1 Synthetic Racing Formula oil?

so this product currently doesn't even exist, though it's listed on the valvoline web site. sounds like a lot of marketing propaganda at first glance.

i just wanted to know how much it co$t.

just curious, where did you hear/read that valvoline now sells this 'good stuff'? are you affiliated with valvoline in any way?

[nize]

Originally Posted by Black 993

nize, here's a link to the non-street legal 20-50 for sale at Amazon:

Amazon.com: Valvoline VV855 Racing Synthetic 20W50 NOT STREET LEGAL Motor Oil, Pack of Six 1 Quart Bottles: Automotive

that is NOT the same oil. the one you linked (Valvoline VV855) is not the one with zinc, which is specified as synthetic VR1.

[nize]

Originally Posted by Black 993

The Valvoline synthetic race oil (advertised as not street legal) comes in 20W-50. What does the peanut gallery think of this?

Valvoline.com > Products > Racing > Racing Motor Oil Racing > Valvoline® Specialty Racing Oil ("Not Street Legal")

Specs:
http://www.valvoline.com/pdf/Specialty_Synthetic_Racing_Oils.pdf

the peanut gallery might be able to form an opinion if this oil were actually available.

again, this oil is currently not available. at least in the format they have it advertised at.

[nize]

to clarify, this is the oil that is listed on valvoline.com and is not available;

Valvoline® Racing Synthetic (VR1) Motor Oil
Name 20W-50 Engine Oil
Size Quart
Part 679082.0
UPC 0-74130-01461-9

or

Name 10W-30 Engine Oil
Size Quart
Part 679083.0
UPC 0-74130-01462-6

[Canuck_Targa]

Just be aware that some race oils are formulated for just that "Race". Their additive package is different because they expect that they will be torn down frequently and changed often.

My car barely gets to the bottom end of the designed operating viscosity of 20W-50 (118-130 deg C) even at its hottest, so 20W-50 is not for me (and I imagine most others not racing or auto-x) 10W-30 is designed for 92-107 deg which is where my car runs consistently.

[HarryD]

Valvoline appears to have two types of VR-1, regular and "non street legal".

Both have plenty of ZDDP but the "non street legal" has a very reduced level of detergents.

The reduced detergents in the non street legal version are to reduce foaming at high revs. This is not harmful to the engine since the oil is meant for race engines. Race engines are torn down very frequently and the need for detergents to keep crap in suspension is not necessary.

You can see their PDS Sheets here:

VR-1 Dino --> http://www.valvoline.com/pdf/VR-1%20Racing%20Motor%20Oil.pdf

VR-1 Synth --> http://www.valvoline.com/pdf/VR-1_Synthetic_Racing_Motor_Oil.pdf

VR-1 non-street legal --> http://www.valvoline.com/pdf/Specialty_Synthetic_Racing_Oils.pdf

[SRT356/911]

Peanut Gallery

Peanut gallery - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[IROC]

Originally Posted by Black 993

This is the email I received from Valvoline when I asked about ZDDP levels in their non-street legal oils:

The street legal VR-1 Dino listed above contains 1400 ppm zinc and 1300 ppm phosphorous. The NAPA guy knew I had an older car when I asked for the entire case...

[nize]

price?

[dshepp806]

Be VERY prepared to change out that non-street stuff FREQUENTLY,..I'm told it has MINIMAL detergents,..(for a racer: not an issue)...for the street, one would go with what IROC described, as those Z/P levels are good to go,....although I've never run VR, I'd certainly take my same empirical approach of oil analysis (UOAs), at various mileages, to see when those levels drop,..particularly, the TBN.

I'm staying with my BP changeouts at 3K (regiously)...

BEST!

Doyle

[djcdmv]

I'm sure it's somewhere in this 84 page thread, but if you don't put on 3,000 miles a year, is there anyone out there that does not do it anually?

[richardlw]

I guess I'll chime in again.

The Valvoline "not street legal", from their spec sheets, has very little detergent. Therefore I would not recommend it for normal use. It will be very good for anti-wear. If you want it for a track event. but then go back to something else.

Also, several have found and commented on the VR-1 Synthetic Racing Oil. There is a 5W-50 version of it, and it looks VERY good, but apparently it is not available in the US. I've recommended it to some cyber-friends in other parts of the world and it has become popular with several car enthusiasts there.

[333pg333]

Originally Posted by Canuck_Targa

I suggest reading the above linked article "Selection of the Right Motor oil for the Corvair".
This is a very informative article that is dealing directly with the reduction in Zddp in the newer oil. This articele will give you enough information to make your own decision on what oil is right for you and your driving climate and conditions. It is based on facts and studies not opinions and opinions of others. Not saying there isnt alot of factual information in the previous 83 pages of this thread, but there is definately alot of opinion based on what, I am not sure.

I will base my decision on what my driving type and climate is, a race motor in the southern U.S should not be using the same oil as a car that gets out once a week for a sunday drive in a far clloer climate.

Read the article and you will be able to see what you should be looking for in an oil.

Had a quick read of this article and am impressed at it's thoroughness. However I don't have the time (read mental capacity) to take it all in. Can we cut to the chase and get the recommendations? We use a VR-1 25w/60 for racing Down Under but have left it in the motor for the occasional road use. It does get changed on a regular basis of course.

[HarryD]

Originally Posted by 333pg333

Had a quick read of this article and am impressed at it's thoroughness. However I don't have the time (read mental capacity) to take it all in. Can we cut to the chase and get the recommendations? We use a VR-1 25w/60 for racing Down Under but have left it in the motor for the occasional road use. It does get changed on a regular basis of course.

Can't speak to the products you may be able to find locally, but for this is my Cliff Notes version of the situtaion with USA products that appear to be acceptable:

Buy and use whatever you want. It used to be true that "oil is oil". But be aware that motor oils have changed and not for the better.

A bit of history:

Prior to the mid 90s most cars on the road had flat tappets to actuate thier valves. It turns out there is a huge amount of pressure on the tappet/cam surface when it is actuated. This effect was discovered in the '50's (I may have the wrong decade but you get the picture) and a minor outfit called SAE noticed that cams were wearing out very quickly.

SAE paid some PhD's to do some research. They published lots of research papers and found out about these high pressures. They also found that a Zinc/Phosphorus additive known as ZDDP would provide protection to these parts at a resaonable cost. Gosh those guys were smart!

The SAE folks spoke with the API folks and asked if they could require ZDDP added to their required oil formulations to increase the service life of these critical components. Much to the pleasure of SAE, API agreed and based on the PhD recommendations, required about 1200 ppm of Zinc (Zn) and Phosphorus (P) added to oil formulations so the oil maker can get his product API certified.

This worked great but then in the 90's car makers went to more expensive Roller tappets which offered the advantage of lower reciprocating losses in the engine (i.e. better gas mileage). The use of roller tappets became standard in cars in the mid-90's.

In the early 2000's, the USEPA (for what ever reason) became concerned that the Zinc and Phosphurus in the oil would partially exit the engine via the tail pipe. This is a big deal since these two elements tend to kill the catalytic converters and, in theory diminish their service life. As a result EPA wanted the reduce the Zinc and Phosphorus in motor oils.

Fortunately (for EPA), car makers had already gone to roller tappets. Again the PhD's went to work. The clever PhD's found that the roller tappets do not exert the high pressures that flat tappets do. They did some more reaserch and found that for car with Roller Tappets, you could safely reduce ZDDP to a much lower level with no adverse impact on cam service life.

This change was codified in the API SM/CJ4 (and newer) oil standards. And while some formulations are permitted to have higher Zn and P, the cost of ZDDP relative to base motor oil is much higher and if the oil maker wants to save some money (i.e. increase profit or lower price) he merely needs to reduce the use of this relatively expensive additive and still claim conformance to API requirements.

Older engines (pre-mid 90's) STILL need high levels (around 1200 ppm plus correct level of detergents) of Zinc (Zn) and Phosphorus (P) to protect cams and other high pressure surfaces.

Use 20W-50 or 15W-40 oil. Brands frequently sugggested here, in no particular order, include:

Brad Penn 20W-50
Valvoline VR-1 20W-50
Kendall GT 20W-50
SWEPCO 15W-40
Royal Purple
Redline
Motorcycle Oils

There are others as well.

This post here may be illuminating as well: Ultimate Motor Oil Thread or Why we hate CJ4/SM oils