Ultimate Motor Oil Thread or Why we hate CJ4/SM oils

[Wil Ferch]

114 degC/237 degF is a bit too hot and certainly....the various oils all have different flash points and high temp characteristics. Even if you find oil that can operate at these temps...ask yourself, what about the additional thermal stresses of expansion/contraction on the engine..and the affect on seals ?? Try to bring temps down below 220 degF / 105 degC, which will be cooler but still hot enough to displace "moisture", being hotter than boiling water.

[HarryD]

With the advent of the SN oils, and based on recent conversations with others, I have dropped Chevron Delo 15W40, Exxon Delvac 15W-40, and Shell Rotella 15W-40 from my short list.

I still support Brad Penn, Valvoline VR-1 and Kendall GT.

[bsimonson]

Penrite Oil has an interesting article regarding zinc and anti-wear that is mostly relevant for us Europeans with easily available ACEA-certified oils.

http://www.penriteoil.com.au/images/PENR0138_Penrite_Zinc%20Tech%20Bulletin.pdf

[brads911sc]

Harry/Charles,

What are your thoughts on adding a dry film lubricant to bearings when replacing them as an added defense?

Thanks

Originally Posted by HarryD

With the advent of the SN oils, and based on recent conversations with others, I have dropped Chevron Delo 15W40, Exxon Delvac 15W-40, and Shell Rotella 15W-40 from my short list.

I still support Brad Penn, Valvoline VR-1 and Kendall GT.

[cnavarro]

Dry film lubricants are great. On the cheap you have Dow Corning 321, which works well as a permanent assembly lube. You just have to use it sparingly.

Other dry film lubricants like Calico's bearing coating are phenomenal too. We've seen race engines with coated bearings that look like new even after seasons of abuse.

Another process we've used that is great (and non-dimensional) is WPC treatment, originally developed for Honda in Japan. It's now available by the same company, but here in the states:

WPC - Metal Surface Treatment / Micro Shot Peening

I was just having this discussion with someone else yesterday - coatings are great, when the right ones are used and in the right areas. DLC is also great for metal surfaces, as is REM micro-finishing.

[brads911sc]

Thanks Charles. Great information.

As an FYI, WPC charges $4 per half shell (main, rod, intermediate) for their treatment on bearings. Disclosures you have to sign are crazy... limits their liability for any reason to the $4 you paid to them.

Originally Posted by cnavarro

Dry film lubricants are great. On the cheap you have Dow Corning 321, which works well as a permanent assembly lube. You just have to use it sparingly.

Other dry film lubricants like Calico's bearing coating are phenomenal too. We've seen race engines with coated bearings that look like new even after seasons of abuse.

Another process we've used that is great (and non-dimensional) is WPC treatment, originally developed for Honda in Japan. It's now available by the same company, but here in the states:

WPC - Metal Surface Treatment / Micro Shot Peening

I was just having this discussion with someone else yesterday - coatings are great, when the right ones are used and in the right areas. DLC is also great for metal surfaces, as is REM micro-finishing.

[AlfonsoR]

Originally Posted by Wil Ferch

114 degC/237 degF is a bit too hot and certainly....the various oils all have different flash points and high temp characteristics. Even if you find oil that can operate at these temps...ask yourself, what about the additional thermal stresses of expansion/contraction on the engine..and the affect on seals ?? Try to bring temps down below 220 degF / 105 degC, which will be cooler but still hot enough to displace "moisture", being hotter than boiling water.

333: I don't know that oil companies advertise a "Max Temp" rating. However, when Wil F says different oils will have different "high temp characteristics"... I agree, one of those key characteristics being the Oil Temp vs Oil Life curve. There should be one of these for every oil produced. This one here is just a general curve:

ELEPHANT RACING Tech Topic, Oil Temperature and Engine Life


The key take away is that high temp reduces the service life of the oil. This is why if you are consistently exceeding 230 deg F, you should change your oil at predetermined hourly intervals. I believe (but not 100% sure) that the high temp breaks down the additive package (ZDDP etc).

[BytorJr]

Hi,

I'm studying again the various and sundry oils available for a 1985 911.

Some folks say I should go down to 5w-50. Of course, I don't plan on doing that; but I'm interested in knowing what Steve and Charles think about the following oils, if they care to opine.

1) Castrol Syntec 20w-50 ("classic car") with supposedly more zinc
2) Valvoline VR1 Synthetic 20w-50.
3) Mobil 1 V-Twin 20w-50.

I think V-twin has loads of ZDDP; but since Steve mentioned foaming and such (diesel oil) I wonder if V-Twin is ok.

Finally, that Motul 300v.... How often does one have to change the oil due to low/no detergents?

Unfortunately, I've been VERY limited in driving due to working out of state; so my 911 has got about 100 miles on it on 9 month oil change. Kinda sad really, was rebuilt recently to see track duty and has only been to 1 event - Eagles Canyon in TX.

[BIGW]

I have read oil threads on numerous aircooled forums about ZDDP, and wanted to give a factual report. I don't sell oil, hold stock in any oil company, and have no brand loyalty to any producer. I don't have any engineering degrees, or mechanics certifications. What I do have is 40 years of experience hearing boxer engines whirring, clicking, clacking and knocking behind my head. I bought my 89 Carrera last year with 130,000 miles on it. It has a top end rebuild about 5000 before that. It sounded good, but I wanted to get a valve adjustment and oil change done so everything was fresh. I had Black Forest in San Diego do the work. I asked about what oil they were going to use and was told Castrol 20/50. I brought up the ZDDP issue and was told that they felt that there was no problem using the Castrol. I have been using Brad Penn since 2007 in my VW engines, and mentioned this to him, but he said the GTX was all they used. So since they are the experts, getting paid to service Porsches I let them use the Castrol in my car. The car sounded pretty quiet after the service, with less valve train noise. I put 2500 miles on it but I kept thinking about the oil. So I just changed the oil to 20/50 Brad Penn. The engine is noticeably quieter. I went for a 100 mile drive today with a friend who has driven the car and he commented how much quieter the engine was. So I am reporting that Brad Penn 20/50 makes my car run with less valve train noise. Take it for what it is worth. I will be using BP 20/50 from now on.

[lucittm]

Not to split hairs or anything... but your report was subjective, not factual. If you had measured the decibel level before and after and compared those numbers, that would be factual. Based on your story the engine could indeed be quieter. It could also have changed frequency and therefore sounded quieter when in fact, it is just as loud but in a different spectrum of sound.

The fact that you have used Brad Penn for almost four years and you switched back MAY have had some influence in your sense that the engine was quieter.

This post is 75 pages long because everyone has an opinion or something to say about the kind of oil they use. I am not taking sides and I really don't care what kind of oil anyone on this forum uses. I am just pointing out how observations can be factual if quantitative or qualitative data are used to support them or non-factual if no data is available to support the statement.

Mark

[BytorJr]

Sorry folks, I see that Steve W on page 50 summarized. V-Twin is great as is Motul 300V 15-50.

Now I'm only curious about the Castrol, since it's quite easy for me to find for some reason. Though, I am curious if 20w-60 is OK in an 85 911.

No worries though. Thanks in advance.

[BIGW]

You are right, I really can't believe what I hear. It was probably just a placebo effect. And my friend who has been driving the car for the last 3 months while I was out of town, also a longtime aircooled guy, just mentioned the difference in sound because the sun was out, the top was off and he had taken a big hit of some green bud. I really don't even have a Porsche. I just sit in my Mom's basement here in Keokuk, Iowa and make this stuff up.

[1990C4S]

I appreciate that your engine may be quieter. But regardless of what you hear the issue is oil life and protection. If you can correlate that to 'engine noise' then people here will take your suggestion seriously, until that time its just an interesting side bar.

For what its worth I suspect that the difference you hear is viscosity related.

[Jerome74911S]

I can't even hear my engine for the differential noise, the fan noise, the wind noise, etc., so little differences that might occur due to a subtlety caused by viscosity, or whatever, are completely lost.

Anyway, when people say that "X" oil is great, this is lost on me, too. I put in oil, run it, then drain it out, and it looks like dirty oil to me. How do I know how great it is, or isn't?

Yes, I've read too much of this thread and others. But in the end it's all a blur. I pay attention to what is said here, but too much is said for me.

[kidrock]

Originally Posted by BIGW

You are right, I really can't believe what I hear. It was probably just a placebo effect. And my friend who has been driving the car for the last 3 months while I was out of town, also a longtime aircooled guy, just mentioned the difference in sound because the sun was out, the top was off and he had taken a big hit of some green bud. I really don't even have a Porsche. I just sit in my Mom's basement here in Keokuk, Iowa and make this stuff up.

ROTFLMAO, that is just classic.

FWIW, I think BigW's report would be based on "empirical data", not necessarily "subjective".

[Navaros911]

Originally Posted by BIGW

You are right, I really can't believe what I hear. It was probably just a placebo effect. And my friend who has been driving the car for the last 3 months while I was out of town, also a longtime aircooled guy, just mentioned the difference in sound because the sun was out, the top was off and he had taken a big hit of some green bud. I really don't even have a Porsche. I just sit in my Mom's basement here in Keokuk, Iowa and make this stuff up.

FWIW: The same observations I can make on the Brad Penn oil... my car runs quieter with it. And you know what: I like the sound better that way.

[lucittm]

Kidrock,
Empirical describes data obtained from experience, observation, or experiments. There is no quantitative data here, neither is there qualitative data to compare to. To quote:
Castol, "Pretty quiet after the service."
Brad Penn, "The engine is noticeably quieter."
Brad Penn again, "... less valve train noise."

Subjective means that the information comes from the person (subject) not the object. Everything quoted above came from the interpretation of BIGW not the engine itself. There are no decibel numbers, no source distance measurements, no unbiased expert witnesses to give opinions, and no before and after control limitations such as engine/ambient temperature, engine RPM, engine load, background noise, etc.

If BIGW says his engine is quieter with Brad Penn 20/50 then I believe him. I just don't have any facts to back up this belief and neither does BIGW, so it is a belief not a fact. You can repeat the belief and you can yell the belief, you can even use hyperbole in a story to make a point and it is still a belief. That's all I'm saying.

Mark

[1990C4S]

And step b of course is correlating decibels to some sort of positive benefit....

[BytorJr]

Ok, back to reality guys...if one is in Iowa they will have plenty of time for creative writing . I know...why do you think I'm bored enough on Turkey day weekend to be looking at oil? Hopefully me sentence to Iowa won't last much longer.

Seriously though. I guess I'm going to add 2 more oils to the question list.
1) MOTUL 300V 20W-60 (yep, the 60 weight)
2) Total 10w-60 (that stuff for the new M3).

Steve W? Charles N? Any other builders?

Thanks.

[maria22hzn]

great post man